From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A46513B29E for ; Fri, 28 May 2021 19:18:58 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1622243936; bh=rbnq1ntkCXmOgGX6qpdJxXulW/Wkt6YuS5ZFrxeEZZ8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=RCFzW1TYIzwJyMoFolb0/Ocjzb0zcRRG/8TIzfQGHj1GNanzDsBNc4P6tyM4f0RFp pxrYObGYczQhvaTCS3cIDMiyccdD2Up5ky1wLD/T3nVzbzJVgBxpU5ggDTpufCTe89 xfboRUcczR2d5zQ+cThm1jCc3qDpxNUJp1Fek+7A= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.42.229] ([77.6.92.107]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MVeI8-1lwZMa2avM-00RVF4; Sat, 29 May 2021 01:18:56 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.20\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 01:18:55 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Jonathan Morton , "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <8CA408F6-C8FA-4AAF-908A-B52BDC5030FF@cable.comcast.com> <3DC2F247-63C2-4753-9E44-2F494E545FEA@apple.com> To: Aaron Wood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.20) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:RNnKJIpZbpJaA0nM4qzBjIO1o9U+y/SY+IH69eFZoBdvM3E3VKe vzKVBObmGeU53T+rHBNovjB2MHk+RINvvMAM/Obao93F2PaYhW6sT7ECHZkaMfhD7QzQKf1 S3ncKGQg6TnWo90xYSxQK1pbI8Hx3LzLVK7+OArEoz7+jiNtfqgdgkA5G8ZR0CEncPIYd5Z Hw6302suD4Qq9KUVHv1uw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:fU7z923/9s8=:aTFKIPuxqEhe7ICPtqglxU XgddSNLI/f4WInqwutpNKEBxzJ7BdKctYLcGPxO3u/KrPDUw8OClfZK2OZaUyAozvuR3FP66w vGck4Lnl5dhS0xm7Z+FcfIxOcejXLQYRD2wplE4+WV3K0sEpY1cKHDn1LbfTzhE6eJMcvoXrv 3OgvobZIT30Ga/bNbd/QD4PnFKmR/mpwPr6asYOcDKE34rSr41Y8fj6CsWU03OIE1hM1DtLMp 7weVbussFWZDZ1x5hzLsCM6mO7FJKKP4SqSC7Zgg5+HXuH9pYcw4JfBViKxnnpyK3SiQOUF+R SQwdYc7M8oDDEcJXuB/fpYJTz46IvHKMNpT4NH+5PBhd3qrBNlFyBx5z5gsGVsyRNKWarSEia OlfpQOzxrGYKiWVLTlUUmBBUnZctsnyk96yPCxbIO2LavYp1iKG1x4VCdGrIZavmrRMQujW/T otk40V7AnN67ahV4WavK5LCOANf6sJrcdKWdHIVFIdASF29svI+aq+fYF7e0UVneXP1QkibB5 JzpHoBlCgXMCVeaonBvpuhatkrxpjlmSVUVz+YxOYm+nz6hBBjTRdvpbqPLWGb2jWrZllWgBO tdEkLP4NHRkw8Nwk4/R5W6+aRtbAH/wEDoX2QH837rv6gN21V8WpLNhmRMAklNXRgZCysurcC rU8lzCtf2DWZnlJUFK85+zaeH1XnzYdvqeNVVqGN5mDpFFPKbWEo51gSccJEL+ANQsi6IH1ZD iNAcGlh1XWlJ+rn/TbB4zqd+v7wPbXrpqYhQvehQynnayElxcrS+bxobvveE3jYeaZ3ksqr7v 45fv72ffyNVw2iSh4hZXW4BmJRKSuaAwao3xnlhyZBLQ33nXkphGOLDvM2z0sp+u+spsAxciu MH70H2gTM4IghW6MJiZ5rZcAM6LNL7qQgR84N3t//lHuyZ8Ryqj3gLQg1/K+cwoneXgCFWnEn o7x10rJlt8g7GvwC2GX+U3wi/RLdHCkDv0JsozHPBKHDk4VqSeFDgR4K0TQ44arhpm8mK7esh +s0GgLADtVNSCjJbUcROe/nTtRL2CO1/69Oqcw/vRVPm9Yn2SAxLEeF6Qpr9gkYjqJ/F7RIsP HST9rJwydK3Cib9ygwmwMVz2CiqVJ1TOczh Subject: Re: [Bloat] AQM & Net Neutrality X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 23:18:59 -0000 Hi Aaron, I understand your argument more as an argument for equitable sharing/FQ = than for AQM, even though both complement each other quite well. The biggest point for FQ in my opinion is, while this is certainly not = the optimal capacity share regime for all traffic mixes, but without an = oracle at the bottleneck (or robust un-gameable information about = relative priority encoded in the packets themselves) it is the one = sharing regime that will never be pessimal, and should always be good = enough and also per definitionem compatible with net neutrality rules, = since no flow gets an advantage over another one. That said FQ does not = solve all pathologies and is for example gameable by splitting a = transfer into many concurrent flows, but single queue AQMs and even a = dumb FIFO behave similarly the same pathology already, so FQ does not = make matters worse. Regards Sebastian > On May 29, 2021, at 00:28, Aaron Wood wrote: >=20 > I think one of the big advantages that AQM has is that it doesn't = know, or care, who the flow is. It can't, itself, violate NN concerns = because it has no knowledge with which to do so. >=20 > Instead, it punishes the greed flows that try to use more than their = fair share of the available bandwidth. It doesn't really favor one = protocol, or provider, or site, or anything else, because it's not aware = of them, as such. Instead it just stops the kid that's trying to take = all the candy from the candy bowl, to make sure there's enough for = everyone else in line. >=20 > The working could perhaps be softened from "punished", perhaps, = depending on the audience. >=20 > "Everyone gets an equal slice, up to their fill" is another way of = looking at it, I think. >=20 > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:36 AM Dave Taht = wrote: > oops, wrong link for the that plea to both sides of the debate. The > correct link was: >=20 > http://blog.cerowrt.org/post/net_neutrality_customers/ >=20 > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:32 AM Dave Taht = wrote: > > > > I made the most articulate pleas I could to both sides of the debate = on this: > > > > = https://blog.apnic.net/2020/01/22/bufferbloat-may-be-solved-but-its-not-ov= er-yet/ > > > > I do think that now that the scandal here has reached a peak: > > https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/oag-fakecommentsreport.pdf > > > > that perhaps an honest appraisal of both AQM and fq+aqm technologies = can be had > > in public, again. I'd be willing to reach across the isle on this, = and > > patiently explain stuff to lawmakers where their thinking is > > incorrect, in order to finally fix bufferbloat. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Latest Podcast: > = https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat