From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9521F3CB35 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2022 17:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id y11so883378lfs.6 for ; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:45:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=WhbcEJtKCHVsyf77vtXEUFtmtTPDk/nxbCyJJ2AGUX8=; b=Z0rEeXbBl0fBQF1TGR73nIxMNVHDAM2qiP+1uPZn4ywytcqtCHih6GMZ6ZT4iHhsYZ c9hjmeTnQVbvXNHj//HThcXcySOaYmaMnqg8ibpXsJGciA7QQdpbGloaRNa0hsIYGWoJ 9Jm8eEyODgC2AgR/92VIp4xfv7JXATdWpzYzuFG9WgDGsU8KdtbCa0d0bu663d5LF/33 7KZdRcmJ/DjaXXhZgB1npdOOWb30x3YQkWpxiQFgLNBt3V/UYEVCyzvfvEnWJTveZMcH y7c0n/tv/pIhaxu7M9H1yCt5KCf+ZR3Ym1YN3d3B75x6khbJzKdaYoTd1FL6/m25m+hy KNoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=WhbcEJtKCHVsyf77vtXEUFtmtTPDk/nxbCyJJ2AGUX8=; b=RAPbdPxSC7lLNnluecQ4UThHwX8O6YfMchV7yfhc60f9GdMN3f8HicDApxUSnEWzU2 EeI8zSPFO3UhXNZSDASqFUsNZpACvKDpwIVDo7jlibFZ4cc+36IgqV9IZSu8XjLKe3ve a6Hplj2uIiGVHik31PHj6oZJ3/l0r8l91/WFpix6olMinlJ7hSS5+zqdtTmFRQna9I8c 3cerpKtxXuyKbVFrJn7U+XfC+F7BEQj8erph5WQXWgRW7ivy8Dj25GMJVwGk813ey0E6 xueY0B8sDkj5Ksw5JZ7x9Hzw0VJmzMpAu4e5hxP6JwxsjFoNm3Pm2I9voJDvSO8UCY+c /N9g== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo3gA5UI1N1ykfBUBbYmSGXakAnuebLES9L2hQu0zxa5b8+dYAMi hbeWvLTry675lR6lNUa5TOk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4Y1UCyhymBbcnrIXrvFJMpwSX5rrnScq7nZFJ4Gl4fBtb/AndW6czOuc3ZZhBZot/nCETaGg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3583:b0:48a:e811:3d89 with SMTP id m3-20020a056512358300b0048ae8113d89mr1389139lfr.371.1659649514124; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (37-136-134-149.rev.dnainternet.fi. [37.136.134.149]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g18-20020a2ea4b2000000b0025e4a424d87sm251815ljm.20.2022.08.04.14.45.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2022 00:45:12 +0300 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Ivar_Teigen?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Subject: Re: [Bloat] Researchers discover major roadblock in alleviating network congestion X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 21:45:16 -0000 > On 4 Aug, 2022, at 3:21 pm, Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > Main take-away (as I understand it) is something like "In real-world = networks, jitter adds noise to the end-to-end delay such that any = algorithm trying to infer congestion from end-to-end delay measurements = will occasionally get it wrong and this can lead to starvation". Seems = related to Jaffe's work on network power (titled "Flow control power is = non-decentralizable").=20 Hasn't this been known for many years, as a consequence of experience = with TCP Vegas? - Jonathan Morton=