From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AAC73B2A4; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 13:23:53 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1639074231; bh=dZnqcDac2DzUgVB4SKSAC/RGEbsqU6y/kJFSQLCHF0E=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=V4TldETyBS63q0T5+nAqePrvm//dARgePkeDjAdmTt+s0dOioYfYmZnhXy125SZqo xH7rxL2mh+HR/eT5ZiAlJaJZP7tQCo8yiAm1XHZ982nm3A7PqM2khrNpYjPwKGVDsu weupTYCxYOfIk0NOyTl3d052i8O9nN83sHGuIIUQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.8.23.157]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MeCpR-1mN9n616Yx-00bIac; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 19:23:51 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:23:49 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5BBAA5F8-3C4B-4022-8D80-D87B6CAAB8EA@gmx.de> <85B1D37A-9C1B-490F-93F6-9B23416B5869@gmx.de> To: Luca Muscariello X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2EjLhFxN/syhAECxAaPJ3z/EyEsmt7XKswIHosgurW0np6s9OnG 6o3Tb3x9RXPSAKyy1MWwJLgTs5czEBEfOMXnAhKzQ8qKrIistiaTC3MW2P+dE9+okMyQQU/ jeS9pweCV37qEha2tZ10XlCZ2s9aMIZiZtoKQt9clS3perCCMXB9dubf33C27kt1hdRbbNb bwjPjM9zGGMdIHrXBGYDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:7Ge7BVODIcY=:3pvGKNnxb8rZqV8wxDeyW9 3Lmbs/UW1VodeX2zSmQBULoqQlZD6PJrsaMrVDjboH3sJnb+1avO7CPPmM6EPBUj73CyMT8Lp 2TtRPuTrrhbMfeG4lFx2ptbz3MOYEzW+I0vuz1Kul+wd6rSTmENDs4AHBkNkwOCx72HVtlEsW HtX7RgGDFIFXf8qYBfhlmxH0NzDfUvqo1k8cFLZjW/iXwq6OcpmmxsAPahgp19IRK/yuo69Z7 Lx1NT096Pimfjm1O/sUTxBO1eYmBugECoo/JzsmDyMgzfdNqb+mHUGxCdMn29QC4aDlUib6Rq UplgDmYSRhpjDg2mFA7j7cGXus2lJrhjUKEGWlic58bbRW3+gieM7DI9x+r02klLCforLgYYb KHHot9QRdPTAzKtbTIO1FQbOk+Spq4U46EUpblOuyHwJIIXsXwThPysXQlvBqulHi/2NK+jeS rOXHBNzjvNAuS3XSKL+E95sCMfN/Pp5QOfwMXEoRAAbG8lVIn4ZSvQY2Osi6BKsnkWGmAxtHv YKjeK1TCgD2a6eExlzbYy+7hGPIXtybLMZSR1NVT/gIPfU1h7Tjax27jcOe+dw8NBKHrVM2ea NK+ya57zRZKc0rtncibMNVXE2ppYunxubMMc+MoW3bchjP4c6Ke96DrYIQw53HkCJGPrIZyYj 3Yq3/4Ozav83nbnrtEHEzGfVHQyfca3f1edsLCsPgDOiaP32r/cIuIiOD3q5nNyqVjPjFeJTu SraaD/PORUt179ri566b2LOuLnL4kcqNDnLJMgDlrq3pMIT0ORm9LgzWoTujJw19mJSk5cDSi mCrwjzbMnvP8z0LeG6X0yjpjqB8YOOjRfH77EpYwxlZ1HO8iVUdVfpaQeMUJoGoAistV1DGFW 8xl9AGmDDpnx6qHW1IqCBhuAiU1dT16Pav/zUXbWFP2dQSL54ItPEXRt4qqdntF0bTs6E7jvN 97tOzDqRnGcjWyQzaro5jB3Q3+VilIEg293IzK3GFy1xY3TlamguSyBkw8kO/Xi2nIc2irmnc ScR2GcoQUu8sh2LwzhoIbv/G7ABaWS9HS2R4XoP3g60lYLm+SGy3x5VX2iJA9m/h6Zlphv5Vu ZmUapYNeI7f65Q= Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 18:23:53 -0000 Hi Luca, > On Dec 9, 2021, at 18:38, Luca Muscariello = wrote: >=20 > Hi Sebastian >=20 > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Luca >=20 > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello = wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > > Hi Dave, > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > >=20 > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello = wrote: > > >>=20 > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > > >>=20 > > >> = https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa= 04-1849db81d0f5 > > >=20 > > > Nice. > > >=20 > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the = same time. > > >=20 > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these = speeds. > > >=20 > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to = determine > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > >=20 > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type = reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range = of "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world = similarly and nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute = RTT does seem to matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is = will cause "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known = solution against jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply = even out the unequal jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just = increases the "RTT", no? (I guess no game really does this enough, so = jitter stays the constant problem for internet game-play). > > > > >=20 > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, = Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal = network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to = the gamer. >=20 > Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I = describe above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between = different player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about = causal ordering of events that ideally are identical from all = perspectives? >=20 > Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to = compensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is = zero it is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the = fallacies of distributed computing.=20 >=20 > Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you = fix update accuracy reactively.=20 Ah, sure, I was talking core principle not implementation. I = fully agree that predictive/speculative techniques help to make the = causality problems of different information propagation delays appear = less often. In retrospect that is what "conceal network conditions" = alstready covered ;) > Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the = illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you = can continue to play almost offline against bots. =20 I don't want to sound harsh, but that feels like "cheating". >=20 > There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics = is very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may = conceal inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on = screen, think of League of Legends Wild Rift.=20 Ah, okay. Didn't know at all about the last two ;) Thanks! Regards Sebastan >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > > We had them participating on this list at some point.... > > >=20 > > >>=20 > > >>=20 > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht = wrote: > > >>>=20 > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor = NOT > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with = someones > > >>> with accounts? > > >>>=20 > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > > >>>=20 > > >>>=20 > > >>> -- > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>>=20 > > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Bloat mailing list > > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >=20 > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel