From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 242C83B2A4; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:15:01 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1668258899; bh=bQ6IpzZqD8exmX11/0PU3dvBR48HqbKpcx03rPgDG9I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=I0YP+7PVaPE3LlmFO8+4SG15tF/QO0wKO8JJR4EOp7s8Jk+K5iEwqL90P/ODMAJ07 9AkZSvflIHZPpCeoEuaTmwnEcTbz0ScUGTnP3bhO3U+lefk9eRpVOKsy35SpPqK7BG uP+VQKXF64oxCoZcyDc/pNl10CQtgWnklXSru5qBOF+r7pNJD1RpTWFla/+SYAtIrE poYq0xmK79C9Zv3R9H2uoDSA6FGZnUGXyvsKOKlKVsaDDSpvwHBAOF6yCkOPM03gaF GcSoFfq9KCOppgGT1uvq/7uTvBAvDU/DPbzvZy+9XdURkPztG3pL8DIS9q2hadJlcJ pOTpuWSrI3cCg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.6.137.217]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MGhuU-1ooufZ1XmM-00Dlwa; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:14:59 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:14:57 +0100 Cc: libreqos , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:LHgWcCVfBaFy5Rsy1NQe9Q8soQsrppNwaDd8vwX9YEmZKwR5aGq A1Qs11aubQNb0vmMoo8MJs8M+d+a79aIVWpD1968pDGy3acAaLu/IZKzAELOEJHWOpdxl0V gdBALvzGslrWOipODgo5MlDSdkgJJrZ29K+ogDJQYVKRlRDJ7xXgivARtnYhFzYyrwCUp8i 1XfdkRnsQzzHZE6Fjcn1w== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:kp7Y/H8p5Yc=;FBBPX7ds09deKpbLQ3P6123pHJI HjyH9dpH8D6oREWCS+NsXHK9RqSRrzJBQik1l62xmJcP3iMrCXk8MCXB68dfNAIkkpa1T/YXT 9hvi5hFp5g1iACUIZKhISMrMhw2ZMh7kFRUaLoL/lbQPkxGxI1HxySs6hR/8fuPickvrqgIUt U4T+RQZCAhYWujVky8mASksc+i4HQooNKBV7SN7vVVPhPQ9NU+PO80hauMz3wZv5XUcvUZSP3 yYT6TX4gLIMcavya7BtLS+TVjKeWiPDS97DsJ32YEjctdYLhTDHLQduWY6QNdOFWzz6lLQB2k eAbFmUD8oB6ve8LiNHtZ3Mf71356Pt438a4Akkz2jLwVjlKjUcnB0mjSrbkDrcFpp0ocy0gHx eBtf89imhKpbLfsUqJZ2Av9GVyKOr+x1TBZniaxyG8sABGg2hHuEP9Z8SQbW4vzZmPemu6vmP I51FjMZ0QhhWfA3AN3+g2mbEU7NL174VbEthc2mgPywrhIAPi39WTUWnC3mlT0aOQ0kkBw731 9SGkVGAZ1dGuJWVJWuDBCCiaupVoW4qN3tRncBWS85rnFCNjTlX6TikRlsuMpRGEH9f/H2ARC 9F34RULzPr8tfrxY9b7oKJ7pDdVKSDKRmMfKlfSDi36aV8jUSBEH3rFwhq2gdF1jitGVI38j8 giNesrX9KOB6v+wnEAThZxPMTltnRZGJw1LddSSGRWONm3b0BYwpIvV4I5aakzKSmqYTwUiCk FmJTmI9l7PIA6gCJmYbLNFDtZ6Vex1qIWdO+bN04bxvbnUs4BejrOmjDLOzCtNRR95Ib5ihbl GojV3b1mpZt2JsHwlZxmIuTfY9GaPZLtDBPFfSscrChhGkWtkmJyObH9pwz9Otbj+1fSKnxL1 zTw3HB4e/8Obsj5cZKspZUJhPVzxCjHXp3iO2f1JpBr2RBSyy2f5EG4NGgk23qt7T3YWb1Iyy kjqthADsir2zh9n4G64dSMqdOts= Subject: Re: [Bloat] summarizing the bitag latency report? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:15:01 -0000 Hi Dave, so I think you have three audiences that should learn about this: a) end-users (my hot-take was tailored for end-users) b) politicians c) industry people (C-suite members of ISPs*) I think you need three different one paragraph summaries tailored to = each groups focus. a) end users =20 I would stress the "you can improve your link today with little work" to = make it fit for video conferencing "under working conditions". I would not wade into the swamp that is "gaming" any deeper than = necessary (so have a sentence along the lines of "these described = methods will obviously also help other latency-sensitive applications like gaming"). Why avoid gaming? Gamers = are quite opinionated and take promises often literally, hence are easy = to disappoint so better under-promise, but over-deliver. b) politicians Here I would emphasize that while fiber-to-everyone is the ultimate goal = getting latency under control will result in a noticeable "better" = (because subjectively more responsive) internet experience for those = that will have to wait longer for fiber. I simply assume that = fiber-everywhere is the goal across the aisle in the US, at least over = here all major parties agree about the ultimate goal and just disagree = how to get there, with the party in opposition magically always seeing = more urgency ;). So push this as a relative low-effort/low-cost method to noticeably = improve the internet experience for the electorate...=20 c) industry people This has two groups, those that run large internal networks and ISPs. I = think for the first group the arguments for a) and b) could be re-used = (b) reframed as low-cost ways to get more mileage out of the existing = network infrastructure with a few targeted = replacements/upgrades/configuration changes).=20 For the second group I am a bit at a loss, as the arguments a) and b) = MIGHT not be all that attractive for someone selling internet-access = priced by "top-speed", making lower speeds more enjoyable/usable seems a = bit counter productive... One pitch could be a marketable advantage = over the competition, but that requires actual competition.=20 Not sure how to give the enlightened ones arguments to convince their = peers. Regards Sebastian *) some are enlightened already P.S.: QoS, vs QoE Cause and effect, means and end... What the users will evaluate are = their experiences; traditional QoS can be a means to improve that = experience, with a hitherto often neglected aspect being = latency-under-load which above a bare minimum access rate seems to = correlate stronger with user experience than top-speeds. To convince CFO, or congresscritters I would think the best would be a = simple mobile demonstration platform... together with argument b) above > On Nov 12, 2022, at 00:16, Dave Taht via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > If you were to try to summarize this *in a paragraph*, what would you = say? >=20 > https://www.bitag.org/documents/BITAG_latency_explained.pdf >=20 > (yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than 3 pages > is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the time we > hit the recommendations section, things had got too political to make > sane recommendations) >=20 > Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO, or > congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat