From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 412BE3CB46 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:04:06 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1702307044; x=1702911844; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=9OaNfwC+27c32I23OmyxlVArNFyWVnKRnXYPBxFiezw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=R22oyP+P3jbRgZ6yc27j9tB8I5Mnui3wpGEYzecO00vn7nb67MwVm5YDV/CyyCca hIfvihRa8GNaNzweIsH8bdfgPNpvDdFJNJO0/hHpj0P/8cfmp7SIFv6GZ5evUSOhI RQV/kWuCM4B7QPb3ka9iXZs1uQZNjKtJWmk/6XyawvUWRdJbY68yvyn+Cy1BcLKY4 OKe6Eli6XK3cH66UroDAlc3Vr/ByX10dmJF8ex5WfFw5pBmIuyqWcvG1Rtt7wva6m uUUIdOA+806f6Y2yfGU4KeW5ZSsRxinePGNspYxqdnS/eWbbadYoKJvpM7Dk4zkfV uKfnyioc0Fyua1OTig== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MhD2O-1rh6tq0yZe-00eNfI; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 16:04:04 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 16:04:03 +0100 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <826a0d77-b6b8-423d-a094-93d75840fa90@rjmcmahon.com> <4C2CA220-A7EF-4198-BE6C-A2FC979A1F8D@gmx.de> To: Frantisek Borsik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Ggzops7O7CXXkzgcP43afiwFEoKHP6N241U4d0lyxa0zbPvYD3c e0brPdjYhqQgynbTC6Jb5xrHXxcp/YvnkhMnWwivBy3jr51YZyd8RRpNRRl3oc1bBwYwF2m b4T9QL9wBF4nfF78cB9xVG67M7OviE8BuW500PhtWcOym996m2QD7rV+l7O4NsuUTtIIR/+ g4av73/TGCnhcKQrhvMvw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:aeCqcDWnAZ8=;tO2gvX2kVOotYtCwqHEOQ8H1znj HxPkYnysSD2xsL/6UGfnyXTvjGkcl5/jGuvkIWm893XId5vrh9vsmDlDUEPoIyoXof+P4EquC gZheguR6M/PjjV2YCxGP+CrhGOvJF7p9xm0Z31PpzQEitoaPO6/2kljL6MadGc6Uvdl0P6e98 kpLWoYyN1P9ZgWODdVoLZaCHe/lmIitJ1WP8q2cNBU6N4CzkhyYmT0UzL+AD+Q+vUTuQW6j9i mOg7F8jCN+BJEJF8C5jN59jPIrYxKfdBNOHzCy2RxU+xo+JNSqJ6U/j+zVul8SL3y2CmD5drP Pftvy2ruCDmPpI2VjkIzV4UInM4SHvci7kS1en5Sfy8AZXg9CPN9wgN/8aYQjPjs1RImALQ21 pwrtgbnuH/uO1zxCIotqEHIerIjU/1rLoaq8eXIejInPB98tdpowWOoSu2vsDtwvq6mdsBEuz 7p+uKFAD4M/xMaVFavTRZoZDZIQBwCvUFNenw5IDs4JFENaqMhT3NrY57gOObbzkgcRgWnqW6 d1T8dX4EgBKmK2qlJhAkPyCUGaWJtUSRaXPvKcekHdgUfTzM80/IEiB+IIquG+rAe+cNY6b6T ZwEYBMtUBGSlfihE6VzU7zlyuhUUV4EDgtNafTAmG3Q9IoHW/4MZQItclL1E4P7hTW3EBvn26 aiPFPTAGArHoMpJfKRC1gwDpe/AwyuEzZCfaAO2rpd8u9Gm1KF+K3mAzzY2MwpSuW7qGR0uU8 vxSxZxz5UHP70/8Ra2/G8TxuN8/OC/qFFfj7DrAKqjV4IhBoQHfptuLx1IzlToUl1aQsj6x0h Y9mfR86jkJlcrvXtMUcXdPpBEJ+U4HP0IILgNcHfiXUqf8I6ls/2wiC8YpmTvi962F4Xete7d vKXQesRaMj1HrXn7hVVCfsk3MAVU6CGGp/wmXCMP5aIynVM5oRmVAOK2k4GZ22tVocRjvbQOj UikQtdPEzQieeVlYHtj8LSUmZFc= Subject: Re: [Bloat] [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:04:06 -0000 Hi Frantisek, still keeping NNagain off-list, no need to infect yet another list with = my L4S aversion ;) > On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:18, Frantisek Borsik = wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=A6and I=E2=80=99m adding NN again, because: >=20 > No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a = quite a havoc. Not so sure about that, my expectancy is mostly that L4S is = going to fizzle out simply because it over-promised and under-delivers. = And fizzling out does not make impressive havoc... > Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it = was for their cloud gaming, But if we look at the DualQ from the outside we see a priority = scheduler with little to no organic bulk traffic (yet?) so using this = for any latency sensitive traffic is tempting. The bigger question for = me is, does Netflix' cloud gaming traffic actually respond gracefully to = CE marks as expected for an L5S flow, or if it is using NQB instead is = it following the eligibility recommendations for NQB traffic? That is, = is this traffic playing along the rules or not? (One of the problems = with L4S is that it defines a set of requirements for traffic and then = fails to enforce/police these requirements, making them pretty = irrelevant, but I digress). > while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an = entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to = create a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don=E2=80=99t see/hear = evil=E2=80=A6there is no hope. I see less diabolic evil in L4S and more ideologically* driven = mediocrity... Regards Sebastian *) Hard to read = https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=3Drep1&type=3Dpdf&doi=3D6e736= 4c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e0 "Flow Rate Fairness: Dismantling a = Religion" as anything but ideologically driven... >=20 >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Frank > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >=20 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > Skype: casioa5302ca > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >=20 >=20 > On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Frantisek, >=20 > steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might = not be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can = have NN ramifications. >=20 >=20 > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain = wrote: > >=20 > > Top story on HN: > >=20 > > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744 > >=20 > > My pick for top comment: > >=20 > > > >=20 > >=20 > > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81=20 >=20 > Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too = blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that = only works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter = space inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher = prices... L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence = makes long range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that = implies that content providers that want to use L4S will need to get = their servers/CDNs close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be = wrong and ISPs jus do this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only = then I would politely ask the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of = DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a ship-load of L4S problems). >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 > *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing = traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT = bias; IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not = important, what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably = worse. >=20 >=20 > P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many = links as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe = replacing the t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > All the best, > >=20 > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >=20 > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > >=20 > >=20 > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain = wrote: > > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda = for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my = algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Bob > > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain = wrote: > > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend = to > > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all > > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends > > badly. > >=20 > > Best regards, > > Sauli > >=20 > > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain = wrote: > > Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general = public, really > > - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-) > >=20 > > But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address: > >=20 > > h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings > >=20 > > In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest = L4S > > problem: > > = h++ps://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-= activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > All the best, > >=20 > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >=20 > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > >=20 > >=20 > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain < > > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >=20 > > About L4S > >=20 > > = h++ps://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed= -bandwidth > >=20 > > It says something about their target audience that they feel they = need to > > explain bytes vs bits. > >=20 > > Thanks, > > --MM-- > > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use = force > > to apply it to others. > >=20 > > Matt Mathis (Email is best) > > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must = call. > >=20 > >=20 > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >=20