From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3116C3B2A4 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 19:02:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id a9so15029751ljn.6 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 16:02:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sdKMI+jpflpIlnVH2qnU4838JG79dgtTckYLHNQ172Q=; b=h2JmFWBeBPwARlwwOQ/NWMzLNnUoU7gfTlJsLONQY4F4k64ACMTA7wzZ1Akcr152ri ufX+2c1k6ZKwEDQvqRHKfVjKerfqCO1LE3kUhNOgJr4vegyiL10LM5frYobGHgQVj2ev 2e9Q+tiZONPvhjY/FiFj1k4bggZtC7rg8rbjGExyO8fMjdU8ZDoEKUyw2Kz+ckGLepH5 h0fI9YFZv3a51BO/ZBGFP9XtpaSyKGE9cu/9u52yn+SLqq2HJu4O/ClJavPyzNM0ZxYP I/zJYgntVP3sDrIPCQGBLtkt99RTyYGz7rU1Vgl4BtY4bs9MOLnXITzyQu22GBEk61Bo izEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sdKMI+jpflpIlnVH2qnU4838JG79dgtTckYLHNQ172Q=; b=klmWSkjVi8fTB8oN5wyKwQXO1JwjfKmSUM/w/to948BEVcSWRqRP+m8lOB0LFxD6aK r0GUcT0UHkviXIo5xfcr0ugNURO90gc7g6aMcOxZHYTwPp21gsEVmqYcoFin4IWG5moO xhkNd8CXnMC5tI5yxFP1vywLARVswKsX+VfOHtWCLnRCnLfQZkTMfrsgaVyn+Q/YSmG9 N2lMPkM1X40/Hp0Rs+AB+plhiSr1fNEJIik0LubYzDB/rOA+pZ8gLniACANjfb8l3ju+ L3Wevqy4pOLLomm/6l2Zf4JC9k5WHU+I2Bnb+mPTe0VcS5TOrkzEbCcpHut1EUwLOScZ YozQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533LU40hjkjJsTVM36nb20A1FYr8un99plWRo+WKoVjNHjjYYWk0 HD38ZE4Pva4/HE6L0pUWAvKfFZGH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx22XVPQZOZ5E32qW0tJst4exgPT8y0zDtOYrTeaXvFGMg0u6yDIdRd3qrgYy9sXd591DLxWw== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8255:: with SMTP id j21mr9648432ljh.85.1592089357062; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 16:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-237-14-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.237.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m3sm2917828ljb.38.2020.06.13.16.02.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Jun 2020 16:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.5\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: <7056.1592082916@localhost> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 02:02:34 +0300 Cc: "David P. Reed" , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1591891396.41838464@apps.rackspace.com> <1591901205.85717618@apps.rackspace.com> <10734.1591975855@localhost> <1591991430.15324444@apps.rackspace.com> <7056.1592082916@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.5) Subject: Re: [Bloat] FW: [Dewayne-Net] Ajit Pai caves to SpaceX but is still skeptical of Musk's latency claims X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:02:38 -0000 > On 14 Jun, 2020, at 12:15 am, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > They claim they will be able to play p2p first person shooters. > I don't know if this means e2e games, or ones that middlebox = everything into > a server in a DC. That's what I keep asking. I think P2P implies that there is *not* a central server in the loop, at = least not on the latency-critical path. But that's not how PvP multiplayer games are typically architected these = days, largely due to the need to carefully manage the "fog of war" to = prevent cheating; each client is supposed to receive only the = information it needs to accurately render a (predicted) view of the game = world from that player's perspective. So other players that are = determined by the server to be "out of sight" cannot be rendered by = x-ray type cheat mods, because the information about where they are is = not available. The central server has full information and performs the = appropriate filtering before replicating game state to each player. Furthermore, in a PvP game it's wise to hide information about other = players' IP addresses, as that often leads to "griefing" tactics such as = a DoS attack. If you can force an opposing player to experience lag at = a crucial moment, you gain a big advantage over him. And there are = players who are perfectly happy to "grief" members of their own team; I = could dig up some World of Tanks videos demonstrating that. It might be more reasonable to implement a P2P communication strategy = for a PvE game. The central server is then only responsible for = coordinating enemy movements. - Jonathan Morton