From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.at header.i=rscheff@gmx.at header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s31663417 header.b=BtomBGV8; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.at policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75D25168881C for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 23:15:08 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.at; s=s31663417; t=1789679697; x=1790284497; i=rscheff@gmx.at; bh=/wx8QuhRY8Zy09aL2PcL8FgwSbApaEJoAiLt+ZZYb78=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From: Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To: cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=BtomBGV8F+OxzaP69oQkYvpl7xdzZePXjkmJIfyAE0JcaJDmOIRVprM2rvRvziRl av+aFafyF3G7ha5Rt0Kfl2qK0PlBissdhvQXIQX8VP5uM8O4/qGD9pAzWEzY+znit nIO2w0tmQAbYk2IdmCxyw8xOLxkOPSdF+iVZOYHCVhuGpZICLyfwLg0eXKZMYWkmm AM65nq1rWBQkuzkJ2mVZRIgbNcw/Mo5D9dnwHHdLYxSFP0u3bElPTXRk5Dv9EMVyx Y5GNunix8mcHDPjbBP3Ld0McZ0vycrfhDQz57Mi+zi3qHEId9gC4WErLjynksjzxd xnvcXtKbXg6c5lu40A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from client.hidden.invalid by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N3se2-1wh1AP08eG-011E9i; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 23:14:57 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Richard Scheffenegger Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 23:14:44 +0200 Message-Id: References: Cc: Stuart Cheshire , bloat , Frantisek Borsik , "Mohit P. Tahiliani" In-Reply-To: To: Neal Cardwell X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (23G83) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:F4vfLKgcNzBcG68TGleAVFoc+QTfj1QtSCk9b1jyo/UCcd20tgl yRCbb2bIzqK7F4/cUJkcEKcc5g85ZhJ4j7sd2I5vwAAMSUTYK7RTtFAq2Nvil4q31DDx2rV yOzZUx3UaAUOVbb1JUuWRWGaGUYDe7Jyoz3xjbvnyuJPmlgRdJ98RzdQ9OQNkHksi+nuhM/ 7ERNxgYMA6p9r7u7jwU+Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ib2JVbH0/3U=;nnwXXrmsUJjQEPJdKwmSr1EkIFU Bp74P2+IlIJqTj2/PA6KPlO26FDl7mtYxFUpCnhRx9Pe0HidyLwOlZdsCeSCeowq3p1/EgcM2 RJrMVxNuIRZx2SRnCxSyzIcvCsE9dkIVUHbXkxwqxqC3Y5DaKbyhM2VIzPasPSDNvZVVuN5Uf tU4YaoOtxmpdfRV9efdpQS5BLurH0syl3kxD0w1Rakp2tDZhSuYIVLNkSdY/s0FYb00BkIwzs 6BICqACZaEyvlZvuHBFHEkk25fv0ObYfSPGbgCc+qrKXW27kdyMJy6XJTSMPvk1r3UdQ1ekFa WWZIQv/M1lOfh4xhFVxZb0aztfxiCNqOC3llpc+RX1KJ981GQxIwFajuVVK12UP0e6nn20exI nXnKe5Oa9Q2SK3tqKtxt8E+WkB92cWOjbxQVNlev6H1ZpERLEO4ytUXc5DnqHGLM5lAU82KN3 gEk+wvDNMxOGepkLQMNcTKQ2t4HenWiHF2pCEnTLinyz730mPxPQ1cu89Ti1xVnLqpC2iZzoE yzjkaetAOKOkJuDb9vkaaf+L60vlA0Up45EZOLlgg+Hc/OiwovY6t2vp4N7ryVjYKFitxXVbb 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List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: In other news, ultra ethernet is using credit based flow control (to push qu= eues back into the sender at much higher impact on efficiency if fibrechanne= l is any guidance) Best regards, Richard Scheffenegger > Am 17.09.2026 um 21:57 schrieb Neal Cardwell via Bloat : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Sep 17, 2026 at 11:24=E2=80=AFAM Stuart Cheshire via Bloa= t < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >=20 >>> On Sep 10, 2026, at 10:37, Frantisek Borsik = >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> "The scarce resource is not bandwidth, or compute. It is latency." >>>=20 >>>=20 >> https://conference.apnic.net/62/assets/presentation-files/93297823-389f-4= ff6-ba5f-73cfe12a367b.pdf >>>=20 >>> Incredible. Thanks to Mohit for catching this gem. >>=20 >> Nice, but I would not express it that way. >>=20 >> Calling latency a =E2=80=9Cscarce resource=E2=80=9D sends the wrong messa= ge. It reinforces >> the incorrect idea that low-latency service is a rare commodity, in short= >> supply, that can only be provided to the small privileged minority that c= an >> afford it. This is the wrong-headed thinking behind priorities, traffic >> classes, DiffServ, etc. People assume latency, like bandwidth, is a >> zero-sum game. (=E2=80=9CBetter latency for me means worse latency for yo= u.=E2=80=9D) The >> great insight of L4S is that latency is not a zero-sum game. *All* traffi= c >> can receive low latency, and that benefit is not counterbalanced by some >> corresponding degradation elsewhere. L4S with short queues is just >> universally better than tail-drop with long queues, and there is no hidde= n >> caveat or disclaimer on that statement. >>=20 >> Instead of the word =E2=80=9Cscarce=E2=80=9D I would use =E2=80=9Cimporta= nt=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cvaluable=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >> It is true that milliseconds are precious -- once wasted you can=E2=80=99= t get >> them back, but there is no scarcity of them. >=20 >=20 > Well said. >=20 > Likewise, I would not call latency a "resource". The link is the resource.= > Latency is a performance characteristic. Effective management of the > resource (with L4S or other schemes) can yield both low latency and high > throughput. >=20 > Calling latency a "resource" makes it sound like something that can be > built or purchased. One cannot build or purchase low latency. You can > purchase hardware that allows low latency, but you still have to deploy > protocols that know how to use the signals to achieve low latency and high= > throughput. >=20 > So rather than saying: "The scarce resource is not bandwidth, or compute. > It is latency." ... perhaps: "The most important performance metric where > systems fall short today is not bandwidth, or compute.