From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87C653CB35 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2019 10:58:21 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1554217098; bh=+MNfhpQ1stBBynZogJvxmJMpH2IZP+NcqDjU7wMdlrk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Ct6Tvkx8FLk6GdNo4ObsjjTqGVnrbZvYhIhpISFQjP7y7w55FXtvXN/AAq1O/KSHM WTkOUWdPfJLf6wc1AkjsVUXEBkd239Cq/OG9Nb5vJf2K9KR9Z7bs5VOQbxtBtOks6U U0KGP2FdhPOkQRhWwHIBUNen+WkTq0fg6y+mH1Io= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [172.16.12.10] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MGRhs-1h6stm18wC-00DHH8; Tue, 02 Apr 2019 16:58:18 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:58:16 +0200 Cc: Ryan Mounce , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <47CA8CDA-3060-40C2-AC0A-04899F08C9DE@gmx.de> To: Jonathan Foulkes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:FF/VoOTTfQbOcbT4aYKuwI2aqjR8mJuL6MkrWrNOrv0Q6E4AhHY H2SNR937ADnQtVBFJCEnIXtpAeeKtUZ+DKTFFgFxq3jdpyurOMCh8qN7pyRf+D04ak6HSPN KXbH66rxtoRD7te/xbfoIJ7D4T0qP9OraoG7dnMZWidGGjYk02pI4EiRVSI7kWt/pSCewqa kWoprWMNsK5vyTcMJCh4Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:SlqqS8ljv7o=:AGx9DSrCS8j8xHvtEp5kHe vs0t5XTIRO4dKGl+8v7dV2WObTlJaLgLD9ytJ8MEiMSAcU0Tpo2AZkgTE34S6MsR6bOdOw2FE ROp+rf50tB5crN87AyLcHKjfNKIpuDi+sWiUO3uAoOJhywBCQ3Bnt2gZt39h2F/FCR84O0Q5N jmKh9lIC4dpO49hjJt6Wdyqo7spF2Fa1RpHcdVq6kYl4sDxBfURHad0dwRGCNUU/LiMGy+6Va Cx+oTv6UnYN7//d8udMT0V7o8dr/iFfXv0lF8dHfpdA1sLq7nIB8YeBeOpQhXio0aQ4z7zwvP kKhBpRy7zFgusnUYDRqsoR5XO2Gm9X/OvFjWHWiNJwYq4bkTX08XY+gNi40F5MyAWfNtxkDYu cAaSJQq6rbGCxIuPczYQwXTDWOtwNLt3Pk8Mlu26Uah/TmQGpYHyVaLj0Ki5Kq9MsyL9r18zt imPBjtqN/QItncxDvlypJDMbmrTZLGxHuNPR5TKFWe4mjloVxD7pU/VmW2iu6RzdzLVNfi/R7 /pi4kedRXdEnsbkGQgtVQoxp057DEJVEeYY2vL7qZagWDko0dBZiaS9swQxCJeDrSzUsYjfkf jjtK2hlfjP9TAvt+2xJ02iVrs4F5OlfJx6fGt6e4/fUujg+q8DpbaA3hWNB9/w3cmoYZ1BDS3 4Iqa4lk6V0ZWyit5eQwtSxvuh/+cuS+xhT4ucQJPNotMZ4UeBNad9HLdUcBZ4JwzL7MMJwlgL 0kwmJzjKiyB7/k0EAhrOT5ddDo7DnZ8jKc4+zRjTvav/oBEL+kNPquivYC83JaR5I7tk0uuws IfNMF5p/0h/GM+fnFJucQ/A5hSw6idX3W0MngY/xtPyvQSsT8ZGhlPrq08SqXoviqSAYP47EV NjXSTvFC327kz7cZSualX7KupIMr+HKkwOAgdmsWCaLN05cdnihX5cKKfWboxpySE0GUEeLle zEaPbVHWDcg== Subject: Re: [Bloat] number of home routers with ingress AQM X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 14:58:21 -0000 > On Apr 2, 2019, at 16:14, Jonathan Foulkes = wrote: >=20 > Hi Ryan, >=20 > See below >=20 >> On Apr 2, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Ryan Mounce wrote: >>=20 >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 23:35, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I've read rumours about some ISPs implementing interaction with the = VDSL >>> DSLAM where there is an estimation of the current link-speed for = each >>> individual customer and then it tries to set the BNG egress shaper >>> appropriately. >>=20 >> NBN here in Australia do this for their wholesale FTTN/B VDSL2 >> product, injecting the downstream and upstream sync speed into >> PPPoE/DHCP requests. This still depends on the retail service >> providers to make use of these attributes from their BNG to configure >> the shaper. >=20 > Very interesting, and extremely useful that they surface the sync rate = in the PPPoE/DHCP exchanges. How are those externalized in something = like OpenWRT at this time? >=20 > FYI- The IQrouter supports the notion of a tightly coupled modem from = which current sync rates (as well as other SNR / Atten stats) can be = dynamically queried, which in turn are used in the AQM settings = computations. Works wonders on flaky DSL lines that vary sync rate with = time of day and weather. If that VDSL2 sync rate relayed is exposed in = the system somehow, it would make dynamic adjustments possible. IMHO the ISP should be mandated make machine readable = dynamically updated information about a links limits available. = Grossrate, unavoidable overhead and potentially additional encodings = like (ATM's 48/53, or PTM's 64/65). With BNG-shapers/policers the = synch-rate alone does not help except for allowing an estimate of the = upper bound.=20 Best Regards Sebastian >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I am very happy about my FTTH solution I have now since from what I = can >>> see the L2 network is almost never a limiting factor (much better = than my >>> DOCSIS connection) so my bidirectional SQM with CAKE seems to work = very >>> well. >>>=20 >>> Still, the HGW can never solve these problems properly, the egress = shaping >>> in the BNG needs to do a proper job. =46rom what I have been told, = there has >>> been improvements here in the past few years. >>>=20 >>> What I am more worried about is the egress shaping from the HGW. I = talked >>> to several vendors at BBF and they talked about ingress policing = being >>> commonly used on the BNG. This means no ingress shaping at all (just >>> packet drops if they exceed the configured rate). I don't know about >>> buffering on the HGW though and how the policed rate is set compared = to >>> the L2 rate the HGW can send via. >>=20 >> NBN is an example again. Their documented behaviour is to police >> traffic in both directions. Most ISPs then shape in the downstream - >> and it's up to a tightly managed (TR-069 ?) ISP HGW or a diligent end >> user to shape traffic in the upstream. Many - probably even most = users >> have no shaping whatsoever in the upstream, only a policer. >>=20 >> And then there is their new FTTdp product, where it is not currently >> possible to determine the real VDSL2 sync speed. If there's a drop of >> rain it will resync at a lower speed in the upstream, and then >> everything ends up queuing inside the supplied modem=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Oh, so they regressed from their other offering, not exposing sync = rates? >=20 > BTW- this hole notion of the BGM relaying the provisioned or current = sync rates should be a mandated requirement, as it has huge benefits for = AQMs. Not that it can be relied on 100%, but at least it makes a good = starting point. >=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat