[Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Rich Brown]

For the last several years, I have responded on various boards to complaints about bad latency with a happy-go-lucky "Or just try OpenWrt!". [recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/1ay509v/comment/krx120h/?context=3] I used to mention IQrouter, but that's no longer a possibility.

Not wanting to give hollow advice, I decided to gather information about router models that support OpenWrt without much risk to a newcomer's: 

- home/family network
- free time
- wallet

My hope was to collect a few recommendations for units that might permit a someone who was intrigued by our "Just try OpenWrt!" enthusiasm to spend a few bucks and a few hours and see if it made things better. So I threw this note over the wall to the OpenWrt forum: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/best-newcomer-router-2024/189050 

Along with two options (only available on eBay), I got back a whole lot of unsatisfactory responses. (See https://forum.openwrt.org/t/best-newcomer-router-2024/189050/21)

But then thoughtful messages started arriving, discussing the state of the world for modern OpenWrt routers, and why the firmware really isn't as easy to install as one might wish, how capable routers aren't as inexpensive as one might hope, etc.

Am I right to despair? Are there no routers out there that we can recommend in good faith that are easy to install, powerful enough (for SQM) at ordinary speeds, and won't break the bank?

Many thanks.

Rich

Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Hello Rich,

The answer for me is anything from https://www.gl-inet.com - I have
installed a few, no problem at all with anything. It's fairly cheap as well.


All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 11:15 PM Rich Brown via Bloat <
bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> For the last several years, I have responded on various boards to
> complaints about bad latency with a happy-go-lucky "Or just try OpenWrt!".
> [recent example:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/1ay509v/comment/krx120h/?context=3]
> I used to mention IQrouter, but that's no longer a possibility.
>
> Not wanting to give hollow advice, I decided to gather information about
> router models that support OpenWrt without much risk to a newcomer's:
>
> - home/family network
> - free time
> - wallet
>
> My hope was to collect a few recommendations for units that might permit a
> someone who was intrigued by our "Just try OpenWrt!" enthusiasm to spend a
> few bucks and a few hours and see if it made things better. So I threw this
> note over the wall to the OpenWrt forum:
> https://forum.openwrt.org/t/best-newcomer-router-2024/189050
>
> Along with two options (only available on eBay), I got back a whole lot of
> unsatisfactory responses. (See
> https://forum.openwrt.org/t/best-newcomer-router-2024/189050/21)
>
> But then thoughtful messages started arriving, discussing the state of the
> world for modern OpenWrt routers, and why the firmware really isn't as easy
> to install as one might wish, how capable routers aren't as inexpensive as
> one might hope, etc.
>
> Am I right to despair? Are there no routers out there that we can
> recommend in good faith that are easy to install, powerful enough (for SQM)
> at ordinary speeds, and won't break the bank?
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Rich
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Sebastian Moeller]

Mmmh,

maybe regroup and refocus and look for a relative simple wired-only variant, then e.g. the naonopi 4RS might do, 2 ethernet ports, comes with an optional case (not sure whether it is pre assembled) enough oomp to SQM at 300 Mbps (as far as I heard, I have not tested that myself though)... this will still need an AP/switch combination, but for that an off the shelf wifi6 AP might already suffice (or as pure AP the coming OpenWrt One, which I am quite excited about, way mote excited that I should). Is that what you asked for, hell no. But it might do as a replacement in a pinch...



> On 25. Feb 2024, at 23:15, Rich Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> For the last several years, I have responded on various boards to complaints about bad latency with a happy-go-lucky "Or just try OpenWrt!". [recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/1ay509v/comment/krx120h/?context=3] I used to mention IQrouter, but that's no longer a possibility.
> 
> Not wanting to give hollow advice, I decided to gather information about router models that support OpenWrt without much risk to a newcomer's: 
> 
> - home/family network
> - free time
> - wallet
> 
> My hope was to collect a few recommendations for units that might permit a someone who was intrigued by our "Just try OpenWrt!" enthusiasm to spend a few bucks and a few hours and see if it made things better. So I threw this note over the wall to the OpenWrt forum: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/best-newcomer-router-2024/189050 
> 
> Along with two options (only available on eBay), I got back a whole lot of unsatisfactory responses. (See https://forum.openwrt.org/t/best-newcomer-router-2024/189050/21)
> 
> But then thoughtful messages started arriving, discussing the state of the world for modern OpenWrt routers, and why the firmware really isn't as easy to install as one might wish, how capable routers aren't as inexpensive as one might hope, etc.
> 
> Am I right to despair? Are there no routers out there that we can recommend in good faith that are easy to install, powerful enough (for SQM) at ordinary speeds, and won't break the bank?
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Rich Brown]

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> On Feb 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> the coming OpenWrt One, which I am quite excited about, way mote excited that I should).

Me too.

> Is that what you asked for, hell no. But it might do as a replacement in a pinch...

I suspect that's what I'll have to wait for...

Thanks

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Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[David Lang]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2024, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:

> Am I right to despair? Are there no routers out there that we can recommend in good faith that are easy to install, powerful enough (for SQM) at ordinary speeds, and won't break the bank?

the problem is the 'easy to install' requirement. Too many vendors (including 
ones that used to be easy to install) are adding extra hoops to jump through on 
the newer models.

Right now, I'm going for the e8450 (seems to also be listed as e8451 for a 
single and e8454 for a 4 pack) 
amazon.com/Linksys-E8451-AX3200-WiFi-Router/dp/B0BJBQK6TH/ but installing 
requires jumping through a couple hoops (downgrade factory firmware, then 
install openwrt)

Also looking forward to the OpenWRT one router.

David Lang

Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi David,



> On 25. Feb 2024, at 23:57, David Lang via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2024, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> 
>> Am I right to despair? Are there no routers out there that we can recommend in good faith that are easy to install, powerful enough (for SQM) at ordinary speeds, and won't break the bank?
> 
> the problem is the 'easy to install' requirement. Too many vendors (including ones that used to be easy to install) are adding extra hoops to jump through on the newer models.
> 
> Right now, I'm going for the e8450 (seems to also be listed as e8451 for a single and e8454 for a 4 pack) amazon.com/Linksys-E8451-AX3200-WiFi-Router/dp/B0BJBQK6TH/ but installing requires jumping through a couple hoops (downgrade factory firmware, then install openwrt)
> 
> Also looking forward to the OpenWRT one router.

That is going to be fun. My plan is to replace my trusty wndr3700v2 as dumb AP, but let's see when this becomes available for actual purchase... (I am still on the fence about the wisdom to opt for an a53 CPU core (not an a53 fan, this thing seems to have glass jaws a plenty), but I guess it will run circles around the in order single core in the wndr36700v2)


Again this seems to implicate the nanopi 4RS as a decent option as it seems to use an sd card, which should make installation relative easy... (I guess I need to get my hands on one for actual testing before continued cheer leading ;) )


> 
> David Lang
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Rich Brown]

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> the problem is the 'easy to install' requirement. Too many vendors (including ones that used to be easy to install) are adding extra hoops to jump through on the newer models.

Yes. My fantasy (I can still have fantasies, right? :-) is that people buy one of our recommended routers for a modest price, download our recommended firmware, go to the vendor's "update firmware" page, upload it and reboot.

Then they plug the new router's WAN port into their ISP modem's port, connect their laptop's Ethernet to the LAN port, point their browser to "openwrt.lan" (see https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cerowrt-ii-would-anyone-care/110554/106) and set the router password, configure SQM, [configure Wi-Fi], and go back to fishing, reading, or other productive work.

Simple, eh? (I wish...)

Rich

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Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Erik Auerswald]

Hi,

On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 06:34:47PM -0500, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> [...]
> Then they plug the new router's WAN port into their ISP modem's port,
> connect their laptop's Ethernet to the LAN port, point their browser to
> "openwrt.lan"

How about "openwrt.local" to conform to mDNS (RFC 6762) and IANA's
[special-use domain names][1]?  Or perhaps "openwrt.internal" in the
future?

[1]: https://www.iana.org/assignments/special-use-domain-names/special-use-domain-names.xhtml

> [...]

Br,
Erik

Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Sebastian Moeller]

Mmmh,

> On 26. Feb 2024, at 10:24, Erik Auerswald via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 06:34:47PM -0500, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
>> [...]
>> Then they plug the new router's WAN port into their ISP modem's port,
>> connect their laptop's Ethernet to the LAN port, point their browser to
>> "openwrt.lan"
> 
> How about "openwrt.local" to conform to mDNS (RFC 6762) and IANA's
> [special-use domain names][1]?  Or perhaps "openwrt.internal" in the
> future?

Or perhaps openwrt.home.arpa...? I think openwrt.local shouldd not be used, because .local is reserved for mDNS, no?

OpenWrt defaults to .lan, and .lan is one of the top ten 'leaking' TLDs already, we should simply< agree never to assign the 10 (or 15 or whatever) highest leaking fake TLD as true TLDs, and problem solved, without requiring any more bike shedding from IANA, ICAN, ARPA, ...
I am sure that, as pragmatic as it might be, is not going to happen... Perhaps because someone intends to convert one/more of the leaking fake TLDs into real TLDs?


> [1]: https://www.iana.org/assignments/special-use-domain-names/special-use-domain-names.xhtml
> 
>> [...]
> 
> Br,
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front

[Erik Auerswald]

Hi,

On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 10:47:16AM +0100, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
> > On 26. Feb 2024, at 10:24, Erik Auerswald via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 06:34:47PM -0500, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> Then they plug the new router's WAN port into their ISP modem's port,
> >> connect their laptop's Ethernet to the LAN port, point their browser to
> >> "openwrt.lan"
> > 
> > How about "openwrt.local" to conform to mDNS (RFC 6762) and IANA's
> > [special-use domain names][1]?  Or perhaps "openwrt.internal" in the
> > future?
> 
> [...] I think openwrt.local shouldd not be used, because .local is
> reserved for mDNS, no?

Well, ideally OpenWRT would use mDNS to announce this name, perhaps in
addition to DNS on the LAN side.  So it should be used because it is
reserved for mDNS.

(Resolving .local via DNS might result in some mDNS clients disabling
themselves, and .internal is not yet decided, so keeping openwrt.lan
might be practical.)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Br,
Erik

Re: [Bloat] mDNS (was Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front)

[Rich Brown]

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Thanks for the observations re: "zero configuration OpenWrt install" 

> On Feb 26, 2024, at 4:47 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> How about "openwrt.local" to conform to mDNS (RFC 6762) and IANA's
>> [special-use domain names][1]?  Or perhaps "openwrt.internal" in the
>> future?
> 
> Or perhaps openwrt.home.arpa...? I think openwrt.local shouldd not be used, because .local is reserved for mDNS, no?
> 
> OpenWrt defaults to .lan, and .lan is one of the top ten 'leaking' TLDs already, we should simply< agree never to assign the 10 (or 15 or whatever) highest leaking fake TLD as true TLDs, and problem solved, without requiring any more bike shedding from IANA, ICAN, ARPA, ...
> I am sure that, as pragmatic as it might be, is not going to happen... Perhaps because someone intends to convert one/more of the leaking fake TLDs into real TLDs?

Sure. Any of these make sense - use the best practice. The important points of the proposal (original link at https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cerowrt-ii-would-anyone-care/110554/106 <https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cerowrt-ii-would-anyone-care/110554/106>) are:

- Avoid the WAN port's DHCP assigned subnet (what if the ISP uses 192.168.1.0/24?)
- Don't require ANY IP address for default configuration
- Instead, use a single well-known mDNS address for initial configuration by newcomers

(Why do I care? I tried to write a one-page How to Install OpenWrt guide, and wound spending an entire new page describing how to set the router's LAN address so that it doesn't conflict with the ISP's assigned range... Sigh.) 

Thanks.

Rich

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Re: [Bloat] mDNS (was Disappointment on "Best Newcomer Router" front)

[Kenneth Porter]

On 2/26/2024 6:28 AM, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> - Avoid the WAN port's DHCP assigned subnet (what if the ISP uses 
> 192.168.1.0/24?)

I recently got ATT fiber and its modem won't let me assign from 
10.0.0.0/8! So I put a Raspberry Pi 4 in front of it.