From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDB143B29D for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 17JFkpJj008224; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:58 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : message-id : references : mime-version : content-type : in-reply-to; s=20180706; bh=bmLEKDXx5qdCW9zfzw8v/KJoQ5H4uZm/or8fGnBkKR8=; b=n92wPf1L4XZ2n0YscC9xQe3u7Hq0ynX8ZpO6PLkAwfLXaVmhCkTP3f4RdEQOte2TNqbw bCtOWZO4T9XEAQL/eULpr/44L5kb03YKT9PaQNYJlz41rOL4hO5J5iSjVVorUTCVbQDU urUG8K6jeG9h70O+uokETMCoEf+NSEXC883wSUWwk71AT9ckwPeo/CfccrqE0GAUVofu 60Iue7Wx4QNeyMuYlVK+1XWK9CmT3soqNe6QF5Sf77dxZDzWNhY01OhfV+YHZoTqmqQM jkO1X5C63+o/rxZ8Wp7C2XJadrqIWBZWw2I4kk3B0mkrCdFHLwBSXo0kPWMzO6GUZ6rH 1Q== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.151]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3aebea5tkf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:58 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0QY3003T1FXHFVI0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QY300300FRC2F00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 33616c885c4604f46baf2a2556943e2c X-Va-E-CD: d7a15a19566448dcf38cf1432bea6726 X-Va-R-CD: 6e98d7a867131c065fb4f779b5ad5a6f X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 2e961d15-6c57-4f95-94f5-ddc7d77c4259 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 33616c885c4604f46baf2a2556943e2c X-V-E-CD: d7a15a19566448dcf38cf1432bea6726 X-V-R-CD: 6e98d7a867131c065fb4f779b5ad5a6f X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: e25227cd-03c4-48bd-ae52-fe37160cea05 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-19_05:2021-08-17, 2021-08-19 signatures=0 Received: from localhost ([17.192.155.152]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QY3008JYFXGTB00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:52 -0700 From: Christoph Paasch To: Erik Auerswald Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-id: References: <20210815133922.GA18118@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20210819071734.GA3936@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline In-reply-to: <20210819071734.GA3936@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-19_05:2021-08-17, 2021-08-19 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [Bloat] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 15:49:00 -0000 Hello Erik, On 08/19/21 - 09:17, Erik Auerswald wrote: > Hello Christoph, > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 03:01:42PM -0700, Christoph Paasch wrote: > > On 08/15/21 - 15:39, Erik Auerswald wrote: > > > [...] > > > I do not think RPM can replace all other metrics. This is, in a way, > > > mentioned in the introduction, where it is suggested to add RPM to > > > existing measurement platforms. As such I just want to point this out > > > more explicitely, but do not intend to diminish the RPM idea by this. > > > In short, I'd say it's complicated. > > > > Yes, I fully agree that RPM is not the only metric. It is one among > > many. If there is a sentiment in our document that sounds like "RPM > > is the only that matters", please let me know where so we can reword > > the text. > > Regarding just this, in section 3 (Goals), item 3 (User-friendliness), > the I-D states that '[u]sers commonly look for a single "score" of their > performance.' This can lead to the impression that RPM is intended to > provide this single score. yes we can rephrase this: https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/11 > I do think that RPM seems more generally useful than either idle latency > or maximum bandwidth, but for a more technically minded audience, all > three provide useful information to get an impression of the usefulness > of a network for different applications. I agree. Just measuring RPM is not useful. As one can have excellent RPM but still have an Internet connection that is barely usable. However, I still believe that a single score for the user would be great (that score would not be RPM though). This score should group together a large list of network-properties (RPM, goodput, idle latency, protocol conformance,...) and express a value of utility to the user that express how its user-experience is affected. It would make it much easier for non-technical users to compare the quality of their Internet without just focusing on a single throughput-metric. But that is a different topic than RPM ;-) Cheers, Christoph > > Thanks, > Erik > -- > Thinking doesn't guarantee that we won't make mistakes. But not thinking > guarantees that we will. > -- Leslie Lamport