From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEA023B2A4 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2017 10:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.10.50] ([93.233.79.61]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MWQSM-1een6S3VXO-00Xavk; Sat, 18 Nov 2017 16:38:55 +0100 To: Dave Taht Cc: Bob Briscoe , ken@cs.cornell.edu, bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <4d54f24f-ce83-34a0-41f3-9f728420d548@gmx.net> <87shdr0vt6.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> <79f4d92c-74f4-8cd0-9d38-e51a668cb9b6@gmx.net> <796aa11e-9e35-cf34-e456-6ae98d1875d6@bobbriscoe.net> <87fu9f72za.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> From: Matthias Tafelmeier Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 16:38:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87fu9f72za.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha384; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aJ10eDn9FuvRcuxdapRuxHnsa6U7RQnXW" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:ZFmYxStuqTA1UugvD0CtjZDInr3cjMbLq0WrV57lXu/NBEvoyFP XsO3UgpwMkWmD2cuKO8+oVXM9kipIuRU0kLUko90F+g2xOjgqu0eZGVHWveYzXmGjopyl1t o85xN6vfo8QSeQCr6TocRfxmxHx4shUXHbnRLZQAggYRFqCAs+w1h33/+tqyavc13lQ1Ncy rCvqacetPQoRzrFiXrzqg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:sxhSYA966+s=:euGqfILSv9suSG/AC5BdWr X7s010vg+pW8n/3ZZ32pxxbZ4DQiMQLOkQ33Qiyh4D5JaTe1Nd9l/jRPqsVh7MADYgiwSEhKe A/PvesGZtwmO9ACNqctAnw38ZAIUoMNg5LX/rnEcYZAhR+85JIM5eywKv9r2NjRFs1y6mZ7kk kvKojBa97mGH0FtNjm2AQyTe4feoovwcyeG4KUZNKC63CI5+IUP3QKu8gmUwltogAd2grdP6G /Bio9fqAttIXc3pNU7EqV9KCdq3xlwuXOuhKzvL26sE6+8Xea1prh/eYLzY+8/IDGs0Mf6Reb xsD8srR9kJ6IYWnszgOSrIE3JPKiwJz27i8jSlN6r6c9xksfITjUB47wXJ3WzNDrPs5eGWNsI BjVbQcxxkeik789Ubo2Vzns/iER0bjscspJbe9307EZl4VUtS/kLyjAX1pAlW7wDJPwU5B+BC 3eeQ2f5gjWZhKxri5/KLUOJb0S+wVkQmEoUBVI1oAm55U9xSIWsTmKw3SDfIKsEka9Utwdfxn YQJgNbEySd2JDAKm6IGm3zwbk0nP/c6cgePAg8/OefePN4JiKFzbA9mJhLxfSMY5lp0zTANHV u6f61Hu4Ke/z9Amqj7go4pdaCVA92JLPi7dQJoUQ9IURk5nsRrsU5BtScAq7nA8ElWLtlUyaI SNj23b8f1kcN3GPBiKvlghNAf6y5jVPNWIpXIN2ZHv5HS58Pc+ljnQ9GwdqxiIKsDdsM/gGcc ACstiMG444wtFVlaLN8fOAS7TQeQG/VHkUjA5y4LcDgpDojDYXRsptBjpi/Cq6FMutuAQMukf BipF7Clm5fYKkMUHEUb4aylQrYSoA== Subject: Re: [Bloat] DETNET X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 15:39:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --aJ10eDn9FuvRcuxdapRuxHnsa6U7RQnXW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LiaNwL73Mp22krIW8o0HQ3awNmnolcf0k"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthias Tafelmeier To: Dave Taht Cc: Bob Briscoe , ken@cs.cornell.edu, bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Bloat] DETNET References: <4d54f24f-ce83-34a0-41f3-9f728420d548@gmx.net> <87shdr0vt6.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> <79f4d92c-74f4-8cd0-9d38-e51a668cb9b6@gmx.net> <796aa11e-9e35-cf34-e456-6ae98d1875d6@bobbriscoe.net> <87fu9f72za.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> In-Reply-To: <87fu9f72za.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> --LiaNwL73Mp22krIW8o0HQ3awNmnolcf0k Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------96E8181A896E7A493009F31A" Content-Language: de-DE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------96E8181A896E7A493009F31A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EA99819C5B2DBB0549D166B1" --------------EA99819C5B2DBB0549D166B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/15/2017 08:31 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> However, like you, I just sigh when I see the behemoth detnet is b= uilding. >> >> Does it? Well, so far the circumference seems justififiable for what t= hey want >> to achieve, at least according to what I can tell from these rather st= ill >> abstract concepts. >> >> The sort of industrial control applications that detnet is= targeting >> require far lower queuing delay and jitter than fq_CoDel can g= ive. They >> have thrown around numbers like 250us jitter and 1E-9 to 1E-12= packet >> loss probability. >> >> Nonetheless, it's important to have a debate about where to go to = next. >> Personally I don't think fq_CoDel alone has legs to get (that) muc= h better.=20 > The place where bob and I always disconnect is that I care about > interflow latencies generally more than queuing latencies and prefer to= > have strong incentives for non-queue building flows in the first > place. This results in solid latencies of 1/flows at your bandwidth. At= > 100Mbit, a single 1500 byte packet takes 130us to deliver, gbit, 13us, > 10Gbit, 1.3us. A not necessarily informed enough question to that: couldn't this marking based virtual queueuing get extended to a per flow mechanism if the marking loop was implemented in an efficient way? --=20 Besten Gru=C3=9F Matthias Tafelmeier --------------EA99819C5B2DBB0549D166B1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 11/15/2017 08:31 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
    However, like you, I just sigh when I see the =
behemoth detnet is building.

Does it? Well, so far the circumference seems justififiable for what they=
 want
to achieve, at least according to what I can tell from these rather still=

abstract concepts.

            The sort of industrial control applications that detnet is ta=
rgeting
        require far lower queuing delay and jitter than fq_CoDel can give=
=2E They
        have thrown around numbers like 250us jitter and 1E-9 to 1E-12 pa=
cket
        loss probability.

    Nonetheless, it's important to have a debate about where to go to nex=
t.
    Personally I don't think fq_CoDel alone has legs to get (that) much b=
etter.=20

The place where bob and I always disconnect is that =
I care about
interflow latencies generally more than queuing latencies and prefer to
have strong incentives for non-queue building flows in the first
place. This results in solid latencies of 1/flows at your bandwidth. At
100Mbit, a single 1500 byte packet takes 130us to deliver, gbit, 13us,
10Gbit, 1.3us.

A not necessarily informed enough question to that: couldn't this marking based virtual queueuing get extended to a per flow mechanism if the marking loop was implemented in an efficient way?<= br> 

--=20
Besten Gru=C3=9F

Matthias Tafelmeier
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