From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48E693B29E for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id b5so15995308itc.3 for ; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:29:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=reply-to:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=/dGuKHQb9DCl98LZIs08W8SNlVF2otH2aSqiYmF6+70=; b=rwqucPtsngKBGkb0rw1WdI0b4cy8hVGD2EewBP50MOHpR9QTUeYHP20TtAwJ96Cll7 PzRMGrIb+61WNBANoNHdzy+LD7SKbCWwwMtcHE+iDhLOcUUocwkSO9is43LsK5nBM8TI 2xtmonq1R7QrcPk3GhlcPDN7rMbbUdbCTkKXtN4UMuAie6y+jNMyzswBeqdxyADycZFD 9dWNB3KbmvB66wSEDl9Qvt4QTB/X2sQ7DsJHi7iy/T47at4GOybhSirt9kMGHBQaKeUu nMXKh/7ZJsHCht88zT2qK1B2DTDoKAatSPtkgpdBtGz5i7G9ydp0UJK7tcx6ksYD5OuE LSvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:to:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=/dGuKHQb9DCl98LZIs08W8SNlVF2otH2aSqiYmF6+70=; b=a+pwt1PamymxM37DhzD/Uc850+PRZQZvcPuGlHr1hvllUGYLap3+J9oSL4ShAiEDeZ sM+zw4q6IeheXZn3i763K039RZ7jKPCQsnD1mEiXF+RhqQRF+/IszgxuEFyL1LK6b5ax Va9pZg05MDgr2/iSqxMeMrxmesektIgUDdwkfw12rQ2EhUrItt7DABJTiP3ynjblywtt 3xxEety4WClyPP42Ra2ApjzI7njjnXjhPDudsRB1Q/omHdt9hMbjz37lc98Pwvfw3wiS 2ipq5RJdIRjdX5K0gmTMAbHbumL1S5iFrqIP+iwE1Pyuux1jpLeQC7bdEPc26Oo+IDdO pO2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL+vOrGygh8k3XSQOE3POFBfN2EYnKDECnV0RiVWmE1yBLhhMa4 r5hOIwlCjAWAmYAlLtRs/bQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZoV0P3Io+6uZNw+59NQzLlcO2ZBSWRGKJECyjHlvz/Xq7tpj3Hz7YmVay8X2zgewAc8k6n/w== X-Received: by 10.36.28.83 with SMTP id c80mr6146872itc.139.1512419388802; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.12] (CPE7cb21bc7d7cc-CM7cb21bc7d7c9.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [173.34.133.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m72sm6313355ioe.40.2017.12.04.12.29.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:29:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: davecb@spamcop.net To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <92906bd8-7bad-945d-83c8-a2f9598aac2c@lackof.org> <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net> <1512417597.091724124@apps.rackspace.com> From: David Collier-Brown Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:29:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1512417597.091724124@apps.rackspace.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3AF098D1BE4FB8E29DDD26C4" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] DC behaviors today X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 20:29:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3AF098D1BE4FB8E29DDD26C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you think that "RTT to San Francisco" is a clear enough, predictable enough measure that we can use it in the context of non-technical users and obfuscating salescritters? --dave who vaguely watched RTT to Charlottetown PEI, Vancouver and Washington DC in a previous life On 04/12/17 02:59 PM, dpreed@reed.com wrote: > > I suggest we stop talking about throughput, which has been the > mistaken idea about networking for 30-40 years. > > Almost all networking ends up being about end-to-end response time in > a multiplexed system. > > Or put another way: "It's the Latency, Stupid". > > I get (and have come to expect) 27 msec. RTT's under significant load, > from Boston suburb to Sunnyvale, CA. > > I get 2 microsecond RTT's within my house (using 10 GigE). > > What will we expect tomorrow? > > This is related to Bufferbloat, because queueing delay is just not a > good thing in these contexts - contexts where Latency Matters. We > provision multiplexed networks based on "peak capacity" never being > reached. > > Consequently, 1 Gig to the home is "table stakes". And in DOCSIS 3.1 > deployments that is what is being delivered, cheap, today. > > And 10 Gig within the home is becoming "table stakes", especially for > applications that need quick response to human interaction. > > 1 NvME drive already delivers around 11 Gb/sec at its interface. > That's what is needed in the network to "impedance match". > > 802.11ax already gives around 10 Gb/sec. wireless (and will be on the > market soon). > > The folks who think that having 1 Gb/sec to the home would only be > important if you had to transfer at that rate 8 hours a day are just > not thinking clearly about what "responsiveness" means. > > For a different angle on this, think about what the desirable "channel > change time" is if a company like Netflix were covering all the > football (I mean US's soccer) games in the world. You'd like to fill > the "buffer" in 100 msec. so channel change to some new channel is > responsive. 100 msec. of 4K sports, which you are watching in "real > time" needs to be buffered, and you want no more than a second or two > of delay from camera to your screen. So buffering up 1 second of a > newly selected 4 K video stream in 100 msec. on demand is why you need > such speeds. Do the math. > > VR sports coverage - even moreso. > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2017 7:44am, "Mikael Abrahamsson" > said: > > > On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Pedro Tumusok wrote: > > > > > Looking at chipsets coming/just arrived from the chipset vendors, > I think > > > we will see CPE with 10G SFP+ and 802.11ax Q3/Q4 this year. > > > Price is of course a bit steeper than the 15USD USB DSL modem :P, but > > > probably fits nicely for the SMB segment. > > > > > https://kb.netgear.com/31408/What-SFP-modules-are-compatible-with-my-Nighthawk-X10-R9000-router > > > > This has been available for a while now. Only use-case I see for it is > > Comcast 2 gigabit/s service, that's the only one I know of that > would fit > > this product (since it has no downlink 10GE ports). > > > > -- > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain --------------3AF098D1BE4FB8E29DDD26C4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Do you think that "RTT to San Francisco" is a clear enough, predictable enough measure that we can use it in the context of non-technical users and obfuscating salescritters?

--dave
who vaguely watched RTT to Charlottetown PEI, Vancouver and Washington DC in a previous life


On 04/12/17 02:59 PM, dpreed@reed.com wrote:

I suggest we stop talking about throughput, which has been the mistaken idea about networking for 30-40 years.

 

Almost all networking ends up being about end-to-end response time in a multiplexed system.

 

Or put another way: "It's the Latency, Stupid".

 

I get (and have come to expect) 27 msec. RTT's under significant load, from Boston suburb to Sunnyvale, CA.

 

I get 2 microsecond RTT's within my house (using 10 GigE).

 

What will we expect tomorrow?

 

This is related to Bufferbloat, because queueing delay is just not a good thing in these contexts - contexts where Latency Matters. We provision multiplexed networks based on "peak capacity" never being reached.

 

Consequently, 1 Gig to the home is "table stakes". And in DOCSIS 3.1 deployments that is what is being delivered, cheap, today.

 

And 10 Gig within the home is becoming "table stakes", especially for applications that need quick response to human interaction.

 

1 NvME drive already delivers around 11 Gb/sec at its interface. That's what is needed in the network to "impedance match".

 

802.11ax already gives around 10 Gb/sec. wireless (and will be on the market soon).

 

The folks who think that having 1 Gb/sec to the home would only be important if you had to transfer at that rate 8 hours a day are just not thinking clearly about what "responsiveness" means.

 

For a different angle on this, think about what the desirable "channel change time" is if a company like Netflix were covering all the football (I mean US's soccer) games in the world. You'd like to fill the "buffer" in 100 msec. so channel change to some new channel is responsive. 100 msec. of 4K sports, which you are watching in "real time" needs to be buffered, and you want no more than a second or two of delay from camera to your screen. So buffering up 1 second of a newly selected 4 K video stream in 100 msec. on demand is why you need such speeds. Do the math.

 

VR sports coverage - even moreso.

 

 



On Monday, December 4, 2017 7:44am, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se> said:

> On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Pedro Tumusok wrote:
>
> > Looking at chipsets coming/just arrived from the chipset vendors, I think
> > we will see CPE with 10G SFP+ and 802.11ax Q3/Q4 this year.
> > Price is of course a bit steeper than the 15USD USB DSL modem :P, but
> > probably fits nicely for the SMB segment.
>
> https://kb.netgear.com/31408/What-SFP-modules-are-compatible-with-my-Nighthawk-X10-R9000-router
>
> This has been available for a while now. Only use-case I see for it is
> Comcast 2 gigabit/s service, that's the only one I know of that would fit
> this product (since it has no downlink 10GE ports).
>
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> 



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-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |                      -- Mark Twain
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