From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AAC421F2AB for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 02:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 620F8A3; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:47:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1424861273; bh=xrKwT3O91/YNeOloXBZI5PX3KxHZ5FoMUoondMHT0lo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=c+eYkHPSJuJKfZl7tL38SSZuVHTodR0AJP0VCfx0k/uxXHx4XYs03gsyoNM5vOdAu TA30ZgyWz1ycpOThKeQqHxf5Icv2K/v4HNbdZB3yu/kSlWG/0qdV5HpfcgpFlambE8 C7ieJYA83Aa3bm9xt9rgqRI3uqsUVXoddOFLngMA= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590E5A2; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:47:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:47:53 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Toke_H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= In-Reply-To: <87twyaffv3.fsf@toke.dk> Message-ID: References: <201502250806.t1P86o5N011632@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <4A80D1F9-F4A1-4D14-AC75-958C5A2E8168@gmx.de> <3F47B274-B0E4-44F2-A434-E3C9F7D5D041@ifi.uio.no> <87twyaffv3.fsf@toke.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-137064504-1941640224-1424861273=:4007" Cc: "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" Subject: Re: [Bloat] RED against bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:48:25 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-1941640224-1424861273=:4007 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 25 Feb 2015, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen wrote: > While the academic side of me enjoys studying AQMs (and I'm still far > from anything resembling a thorough understanding of them), the > practical "I just want my network to work" side of me has become > increasingly convinced (in part by doing the experiments in the above > mentioned talk) that FQ is more important than AQM in many scenarios. As > such, I think that excluding FQ from the conversation is mostly of, > well, academic interest ;) To me, FQ is important especially for lower speeds. This also maps well into the CPU based nature of FQ (that it's hard to do in "silicon"). We're not going to see FQ_CODEL on a 200 interface large router designed to push 100 gigabit/s of traffic, at least not in any interesting price point. So one question that I would be interested in understanding is this scenario: INTERNET----AR---CPE--HOST Let's now say the AR has a stupid token bucket based policer (which doesn't queue, just drops packets) rate-limiting the traffic input/output towards the CPE to, let's say 120 megabit/s averaged with 1 second worth of burst bytes (because the ISP wants to make sure the customer can speed-test to 100 megabit/s of TCP throughput). Can we do bidirectional traffic FQ_CODEL on the CPE to try to achieve basically zero loss in the AR policer for any normal kind of use scenario using TCP. I have not seen any simulations looking at this. What about 12 megabit/s policer to a 10 megabit/s service? What about a 12 megabit/s FIFO shaper (that would actually delay packets, but because it's FIFO we just rarely want to see buffering there). Because my belief is that even though we might say we love FQ here, we're not going to see high speed FQ on higher end ISP aggregation routers. So if we want FQ, we're going to have to do it in the CPEs. I am using terminology that is explained in this article: http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/docs/quality-of-service-qos/qos-policing/19645-policevsshape.html -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-1941640224-1424861273=:4007--