From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f])
 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
 (No client certificate requested)
 by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A52F3B29E;
 Fri,  8 Dec 2017 02:05:42 -0500 (EST)
Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501)
 id 15000AF; Fri,  8 Dec 2017 08:05:39 +0100 (CET)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail;
 t=1512716740; bh=8M222+MUDGgAXsLjOSh2oENTkv3acTgRpczLexMvVeI=;
 h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From;
 b=ddzOv6wBdnL12V+Nf2wC6SN5L/HUikjXDzwmkgn8bTsWiu2RnsR1b9FNFqNsjO3lO
 X5vN9WbQtcX05DZLg4HqTNJ5e0Cuy43u3pH06XOe8MkAhiHpX65zOC3dET1/3wrRvW
 LKwd4pifGoZZzyZhP1AcsfaXkhlFpsezGSHTkU+o=
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30F19F;
 Fri,  8 Dec 2017 08:05:39 +0100 (CET)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:05:39 +0100 (CET)
From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: dpreed@reed.com
cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net"
 <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
In-Reply-To: <1512417597.091724124@apps.rackspace.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1712080800440.8884@uplift.swm.pp.se>
References: <CAA93jw43M=dhPOFhMJo7f-qOq=k=kKS6ppq4o9=hsTEKoBdUpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <92906bd8-7bad-945d-83c8-a2f9598aac2c@lackof.org>
 <CAA93jw5pRMcZmZQmRwSi_1dETEjTHhmg2iJ3A-ijuOMi+mg4+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKiAkGT54RPLQ4f1tzCj9wcW=mnK7+=uJfaotw9G+H_JEy_hqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1712041000330.8884@uplift.swm.pp.se>
 <CAKiAkGQf=cwQDHPE-qXjib6zxbi+_TAw7wNfGFgKtLn5QX4g6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1712041109310.8884@uplift.swm.pp.se>
 <CAKiAkGQ7Hn82OB62gFReTj3iYOnT=n0Nbf5MkV5RW7yy68X8jA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACQiMXbTOxmBVHqe9uSJmSUGyNKqqs4jxwQzNd4Ct4fs+Cq4nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKiAkGSw7cMQMt+AV=QL9VYX3spENR1z+dOo_b02VQut1sVE1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACQiMXaf1tK1f8oAks+07L09u1ZZNPh7r+J7toagJ35SeVQQ-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1712041342470.8884@uplift.swm.pp.se>
 <1512417597.091724124@apps.rackspace.com>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07)
Organization: People's Front Against WWW
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel]  DC behaviors today
X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20
Precedence: list
List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat <bloat.lists.bufferbloat.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/options/bloat>,
 <mailto:bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/bloat>
List-Post: <mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat>,
 <mailto:bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 07:05:42 -0000

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, dpreed@reed.com wrote:

> I suggest we stop talking about throughput, which has been the mistaken 
> idea about networking for 30-40 years.

We need to talk both about latency and speed. Yes, speed is talked about 
too much (relative to RTT), but it's not irrelevant.

Speed of light in fiber means RTT is approx 1ms per 100km, so from 
Stockholm to SFO my RTT is never going to be significantly below 85ms 
(8625km great circle). It's current twice that.

So we just have to accept that some services will never be deliverable 
across the wider Internet, but have to be deployed closer to the customer 
(as per your examples, some need 1ms RTT to work well), and we need lower 
access latency and lower queuing delay. So yes, agreed.

However, I am not going to concede that speed is "mistaken idea about 
networking". No amount of smarter queuing is going to fix the problem if I 
don't have enough throughput available to me that I need for my 
application.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se