From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3204B3CB35 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id CC8A4B1; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:35:34 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1522758934; bh=TdIvWfOBtuUX6uCxksV7/uCFOtjeiYUbe14ck9KBsvc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=URevBWakaEMLmLxRzgViuMAiYhOvWfX03RXADbc5x6ZL++jrFOvRk8WnwgLZHz1bt Q+ae7D2PIBv1R5DFo4UxLGahVmn0x8wgH1CZK0hP8tho+8879Fa9FaKQtqjTFyCius 7UtsOKVRz8UIM4rnYnzAwXNicFx45XZiUuKJoa3M= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA866B0; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:35:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:35:34 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Jonathan Morton cc: Jesper Louis Andersen , bloat In-Reply-To: <8DE589C3-9537-416D-AC7C-9250464869F9@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <50e57074-4ca5-59f7-f010-d9b2b845a8a7@rogers.com> <8DE589C3-9537-416D-AC7C-9250464869F9@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [Bloat] Seen in passing: mention of Valve's networking scheme and RFC 5348 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 12:35:36 -0000 On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Jonathan Morton wrote: > notwithstanding). In the end, people have kept reinventing "reliable > datagram" protocols on top of UDP, whenever they ran up against > requirements that TCP didn't fulfil. Yes, for multiple reasons. TCP is ossified and typically lives in the OS, because of NAT the only options for protocols that work are TCP and UDP, so if you want to move your "transmission stack" to userspace, your only choice is UDP. So enter things like QUIC and others that are mux:ed stream protocols over UDP, which can then live in userland on all major operating systems. This is not ideal, but it's not strange that this is happening. The only way to innovate as an application/protocol developer is to use UDP. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se