From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A5643B2A4 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 03:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8D7D5B2; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:01:09 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1522825269; bh=GunzKc2ZO8qT8KpQNgyhl4mTgAATLo8XG6fqaqqIkoI=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=3xVWFD39yBTZ9kNnIPcA/yVnlJJr1nUwy/UfqD9UZ4oD5eZr+SY2VHrLRuEsH9mez yzoojpW6PfS34OqhI8etbxihv6MWp9oKRdIRrTEUkF/NqXqpccMCMRiBn7+d+kp37C Jth+brYOU4Re4Pa7Z8V4ssjwSNUd6mAi9I8kvzqg= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AAD0B1; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:01:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:01:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Michael Welzl cc: Jesper Louis Andersen , Jonathan Morton , bloat In-Reply-To: <0ED5B59A-5C31-4F70-A2C9-04D9EA779A7B@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: References: <50e57074-4ca5-59f7-f010-d9b2b845a8a7@rogers.com> <8DE589C3-9537-416D-AC7C-9250464869F9@gmail.com> <0ED5B59A-5C31-4F70-A2C9-04D9EA779A7B@ifi.uio.no> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="-137064504-576313182-1522825269=:18650" Subject: Re: [Bloat] Seen in passing: mention of Valve's networking scheme and RFC 5348 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 07:01:11 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-576313182-1522825269=:18650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Michael Welzl wrote: > Sure, when you’re in control of both ends of a connection, you can build > whatever you want on top of UDP - but there’s a lot of wheel > re-inventing there. Really, the transport layer can’t change as long as > applications (or their libraries) are exposed to only the services of > TCP and UDP, and thereby statically bound to these transport protocols. I'm aware of TAPS and I have been trying to gather support for this kind of effort for years now, and I'm happy to see there is movement. I have also heard encouraging talk from several entities interested in actually doing serious work in this area, including some opensourcing part of their now non-FOSS code-base as part of that work. So we need applications to be able to get more access to what's going on the wire, including access to non-TCP/UDP, but also to be able to create "pluggable TCP-stacks" so that a host can have several different ones, and the user can install new ones even on older operating systems. With more and more IPv6 around, I hope we'll be able to deploy new protocols that are not TCP/UDP (A+P), and that this will bring back some innovation in that area. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-576313182-1522825269=:18650--