From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sonic314-19.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic314-19.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98E113CB36 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 17:42:47 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s2048; t=1553118167; bh=pmdQvCbpovub76zuqEBjrNM9BYW49Y9eLWbCj61+/0o=; h=Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=TRmLzoHvMAzrb0Xsg7NGqApofbp5D+WMNLDgA4dTupW9/tkSYlkjsdHX75uGsUq6ccOpiAonx6Ty2n165oeCt6nrnRWAwH1UEaU0VeZrSVs8RR0kNlSliippQo6h81Woc8lbdbsTP5UqnBCtgbzP6t8lohuYO+rvrg/CDKxyvhGtj0AMuCRpZ5Bdxn52VXXR/jIXxmWEty3qxScGI51Z0avV5th1XTMvmd7QEHxB0jJ5hZrZqv/3speUvIsAVT7/qxpy/7vOnu4/37sMp4V/udfyvPHpA71JMGpewfNEfiTgGBT4xMJ/EGfpEs/gmVDRB/pqbjVf/E1rDGOxu88lZQ== X-YMail-OSG: 23XX5BwVM1kknh7X4IbOVM81lmMUhmUTUbyOuowxOBzFzDQt0HE3pSQqvoV0Grr R6xkz4m.28fGodVb7NPk5u37OMni09tPeWn_09LoIZrl3PsSxVURlfmSu9YxkkPqgrWxwkEHazvF 9r8mn.RjwpAV5KiRWvyLv6Om_OyU5Rvob5W9yGzRsL8YyNni9x7PapdsrM8A_0PCv027M4lTwMJg C8zJVYp1Ra7GbWsXzNqH36dBR2lqRZsu0YWGJnh8kC2gBlmt.UwlPpmqlgc60pl88Ekj.baPxIkr TkegB0Y5DDDA6XK4hvdx2WsRuv4UbVuNXsoHX0yRvaLGLaYiwPbFrM.Wd8..VD_xGko6CjjWujuY K_cA7VTk8mtTdUaYOhSgSc64GITAyKAKR2P1yjvTTZK83EPfIlk7iez2GR5zJcBMK9BySpFddrBx Z9nNBg.M5v5CwU31GSnYE8pcb3wV3RMa9k8YSH._CDg8028QPcht31Uqd4zopZJEn.s6r8gXoHyT DHIHHEZEB6hzSsgO7IdiMHuPjYYE4LwU90ZFhMsk5walsclFY4HljMHocoHqxS5d1IIzRXgNeeol QSdKFSxyE0il53Tycv_PJuAEZKaUQvw1LcbSj6YzAXSfde1XvhHje6SeEDmg3jELer24fbPf8Nbh aBVN1CT.UQntNkX50Xg6bWFxcP58.UdkERlHHNi_sBMKsp.dPdZA6HAdwQBjEIDMIPurZ3G1JZoU U_IbavV2qJkYEyCGErrarUT3tFbubNVam5WfeNmh.FlwmUrjgHKcDGYP4NnqY2NThtZuvoVJ7m9y 5rWXOWwMk6sjbsXlIK.JhmRUpcJTpO.5sYulKFNyR8wLfaV1_HiqRNT3DXYm75TjKD_RHOy9Enci NMS_EMy.aixxKt9s1gGqLMAZJMgSv0Kpll0DLRf9fegMiWmQwRtZItzwoXinRP7Xm0AwlSVf2hc7 VHnjUIDtD.vDDpiPLTLyY1KCRLJr6zAjYyi.ARwFj9ugmUNBmk5m.nk9_vLYmgIrEUAM43iSX.PX pS49wRK9wpamF09KfGactvOy8x7TQVC4l9BvzIgDNRvd7XBWLpAWfrYbcTmLHhOIaEmQLYtFVpvd kUi.NaS8v.CSPauuPTx4- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 21:42:47 +0000 Received: from CPEbc4dfba21363-CMbc4dfba21360.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (EHLO [192.168.0.15]) ([99.240.251.181]) by smtp401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 27eabdd0bb4f3257b9db8e0592f2d743; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 21:42:46 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: davecb@spamcop.net To: David Lang , davecb@spamcop.net Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: From: David Collier-Brown Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 17:42:45 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6BF953B3AEDD5F27F0BB5B37" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.13212 hermes AHC/2.1 Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 21:42:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6BF953B3AEDD5F27F0BB5B37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2019-03-20 4:29 p.m., David Lang wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: > >> On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >>> >>> This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants >>> 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform >>> basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic >>> function should be there. New functionality can optimize for >>> different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. >> >> Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you >> replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of >> service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 >> to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) > > I have quite a number of consumer devices from 2000 or earlier still > running, consumer endpoints (aka IoT devices) do not get updated very > much, if at all. > > David Lang Interesting thought: I wasn't expecting consumer devices from 14 years ago! What do you have? In our house, * the cable modem is about a year old, * it's predecessor was about 5 when it died, * the old printer was 3 years old * the new one is about 4 * my homemade PVR is about 6, and is starting to look elderly, and * the old cable box was about 3, * the new one about one * and my netbook is older than the PVR by maybe a year or so (;-)) --dave (I intentionally skipped IOT devices, as I expect they could change/pivot hugely about the time the market starts to mature, -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain --------------6BF953B3AEDD5F27F0BB5B37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 2019-03-20 4:29 p.m., David Lang wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote:

On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon.

Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-))

I have quite a number of consumer devices from 2000 or earlier still running, consumer endpoints (aka IoT devices) do not get updated very much, if at all.

David Lang

Interesting thought: I wasn't expecting consumer devices from 14 years ago! What do you have?

In our house,

  • the cable modem is about a year old,
  • it's predecessor was about 5 when it died,
  • the old printer was 3 years old
  • the new one is about 4
  • my homemade PVR is about 6, and is starting to look elderly, and
  • the old cable box was about 3,
  • the new one about one
  • and my netbook is older than the PVR by maybe a year or so (;-))

--dave
(I intentionally skipped IOT devices, as I expect they could change/pivot hugely about the time the market starts to mature, 

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |                      -- Mark Twain
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