From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from CAN01-YQB-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-yqbcan01on2090.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.116.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C1593CB37 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 07:05:03 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=jsw3kp4AMTGsZRIMbM30vD57Lg80JKun2OEYKvgH34thT93ZkV02rEDXIMu0z60c1dTBVUmACU+cQs3vQY9uu77yc2in9GKLeTmvcvVJ26M1G+mJStMqDUzHm+kuCbo6IuDuPiULZJBpmzxDOEH62T2naWuU3VOlz3yw4mdlfRwpNB+KM5V0fGtoNdtmIe4n48JHNQPZ4b4H2e0rtGDfsEh7bs0kTXK+gTgwL2NIC6aANWNu0hZMPSlWbHYlIgrSoa6ddGp1R7vG3egb9ZWreRplXf2HIE2sVVd0p4byfnjMVfNhqcFszNIgC9xLPPJgbqsiCsl81c33SaCbL275ag== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=QpH6lUnoUxPQQ8G/8VaXceBNdjuMTVWsQ4H7s1UBzgw=; b=kT/oYO96uvsgNPkhoF1LpV8wukahjjU2vQA4S0ZldW2gkeeHjh3gmPgH/yikJ4+3RxKv+/8nBgX5iAEjQcD8DH8fpTHKlapMnO40nu48HN/fnBrg+x7jLv+YNoXPlKNQSRewg1aGA5V76tuuy/Ux9rBT3vvBOvGJG6JVfGuzHXw6DlFa2bRZFxSuCsRHwL8/5L9ij9qH7l9CPn+gw/m4oQdWaC73dCvz1Ue/9aMTnwAX2kFvBsTJd61kUhGHr/wkRIKMofMYtNeFYa5tXrkqo7t9jh0hqa8j8KxV9e2YsUBqR8oGfKczYtIyHXt6eA5Ji09bMoZKqUJUxuCoblSPDQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=indexexchange.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=indexexchange.com; dkim=pass header.d=indexexchange.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=indexexchange.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=QpH6lUnoUxPQQ8G/8VaXceBNdjuMTVWsQ4H7s1UBzgw=; b=XeTxLhdTHsF2SfMvuAFRIr/C6g/LwJaLM1MHGXrNi4r2vvbW6h5RRrvfzUQNkmaJhiBErOkHyX/KQHblSGemI4f9RurV+fzXju54GWpp/ljp9pVV3Zczuxs5nzbfTfenAHGkVGHkvWHwJomWfPpwaMMOrrAdIzVKz3EFWfQptrY= Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=indexexchange.com; Received: from YQXPR01MB4756.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10b6:c01:1e::12) by YT2PR01MB10746.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10b6:b01:ec::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6277.36; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 11:05:01 +0000 Received: from YQXPR01MB4756.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::befa:2b91:a10b:a50b]) by YQXPR01MB4756.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::befa:2b91:a10b:a50b%4]) with mapi id 15.20.6277.035; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 11:05:01 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 07:04:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <11761.1680979748@localhost> <26343.1681007539@localhost> <84213209-f77e-b59b-4a37-bf54e46e3ddc@indexexchange.com> <7r2s1po9-5593-0r22-5743-p39544o72716@ynat.uz> Content-Language: en-US From: Dave Collier-Brown In-Reply-To: <7r2s1po9-5593-0r22-5743-p39544o72716@ynat.uz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ClientProxiedBy: YT3PR01CA0140.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10b6:b01:83::8) To YQXPR01MB4756.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10b6:c01:1e::12) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: YQXPR01MB4756:EE_|YT2PR01MB10746:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9d5cd250-6cda-454e-cbd8-08db39b36dd6 X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:YQXPR01MB4756.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230028)(4636009)(376002)(346002)(39850400004)(366004)(396003)(136003)(451199021)(86362001)(31696002)(36756003)(316002)(41300700001)(8676002)(966005)(6916009)(66946007)(6486002)(478600001)(66476007)(66556008)(5660300002)(2906002)(8936002)(38100700002)(186003)(53546011)(6506007)(26005)(6512007)(2616005)(83380400001)(66899021)(31686004)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?dnhaM0VCbEVKSmhMR3dQbjJBY3QyVThRMmNKMGd3cm9yZThzTG85RjcyL3R5?= =?utf-8?B?OXFZdE9COHFTYXhiMmUyWFdXSEFraG5pekZQT21vN2JLWjRjVkZYbkdFQXgv?= =?utf-8?B?ODJaVFdOY0xUbEo5WWt4ZGJ2R01LQ2tWamU0UXNtTlhSeUxKSlkvUk5QWWh0?= =?utf-8?B?b1p5Sm5Zdk9pVjVzalRYK29OakhYVEYvaWxsdGxZTlBaZHB4RXhES1FKNnU3?= =?utf-8?B?VnJDVlBLYmdrczRZaGxSSjJkK3F5VndJNVZiai92UVhCdUorcklhb1VVS3hP?= =?utf-8?B?SkNjOFhwNiswbFFwVVFKOHlaRW5kd3ZWS202ZFJwcHA5RTNBdFcwRW9UMUNI?= =?utf-8?B?UlEyRVZLYXZSVTg0b05YL3oyWlZLbVMxM092WG5nejhmOEhlWE8za1JZUUFI?= =?utf-8?B?clBMZVVheFE5QUxuQmN2UHBtaTFYcEcrbklsOENVeHpxdXJYNzRrZEtRZHl3?= =?utf-8?B?S0JQRElqbFBLS2FRSmRjZXU5c21lcEVPenZkNGlSUEhSUGxTYlhFb2srNWd1?= =?utf-8?B?QzBNcHJ2cXY1Z2pyUmtvUjZyR3d2dlVlQzNxRVN6a0VMNXBuT1FQVjd6NFlP?= =?utf-8?B?aW00ZGIxNlFmcUdYVmZjbTZYcHMzUk11TTg2d3VieUFaS014TEhUUnJCZUR4?= =?utf-8?B?SkRwMHNPOXRlMkluQVU1QjdURG1xL3prSFIyaktBSGFvdjZiaFNPWHBDV1pm?= =?utf-8?B?V2czUnMxT0JmSHFjN0dySXk3bnY3WDdSWUJPTnhRRnpSNnFPNzA3WHU5S25n?= =?utf-8?B?UTRUMU1VOGhGVmZQL0JyK0hFQUxNeC9VbGhtelk0dHFRa08wOFhwSzdsZWtI?= =?utf-8?B?WVdlekJrakVINmJhVFBNUnVzR1IrSUxseTJubEM1bkkvMkxtcnp5SDhxck1G?= =?utf-8?B?RzliVWtsNER5d2x4S2M5TjRlaE1FTUxsZmdaYVpzQUNhS205SDZRbXA3SWZ3?= =?utf-8?B?V2cwckZFTlFJZWNsZ2xZbWJyZmYySHJXeFRDR1BVaFd2cW1YZ2Z6L3lDWWd3?= =?utf-8?B?SCtRZktwK01zekxDS2JCV1hVMTFpT01NVUpId050elNOeFF4cDNkYXZXbmdv?= =?utf-8?B?bnpqdVpBUnVnb3VlOTdldGxnaVZFYW51MUt2MEw5R05WT1pUcklLWnBWMnpV?= =?utf-8?B?OGh1UGlkTjRnSW1tM3VkbjU1M0R4TzZ5RlpxbmN3MUNNOGhmZW1lNHlRci82?= =?utf-8?B?SE0vM05tTXVvL3NtU1VIcE1LWGZSakJQN1dqTjVBWkRKMnQwMU1VdW5vRGFP?= =?utf-8?B?V3FzLzV4NktPSkMydWRJb2JVY09CRnRHK0g1UGxJaGZ4Tk4vaE5ZdU5sUlB1?= =?utf-8?B?QkYrdlRtSG9kVUVYMStKYmM4UTVhaWkzS1NhK0JxR0RmclRDa2JHanhXeHFz?= =?utf-8?B?ZnRkdnN5R1NwTGpDbktMdWk0aFZ3MnU0aUFUVTRZM0pGVllWa2F1NU1LUXdM?= =?utf-8?B?M2pBYVYxa0ZoUXc1ajBOQTRERzV4NkNCWnYrVUxUQnlTcGVOeC9jUUxkelo5?= =?utf-8?B?QmU1UFZRTHZDSjBDUnI4NW5Xc2NXN0RoMmxNdWlmWE13enpxd3VjSW91YWxq?= =?utf-8?B?ZDJyTEoyeUxWcXFEbTlrL2pvSm9MVE5vdUEwek8wK3BKeGhyNFlna0ZOMkps?= =?utf-8?B?OFNKWDY4QW5vN3ArVVY3V2lYYldYN05UVU96SlBwQ0pHd2NWNVVGbllITmVE?= =?utf-8?B?TzJaZVdSbEZpTlZMMjYzamhoZDdsS0tpZnVFK3lIYmNkZGFYSC9yQ0YrZTdz?= =?utf-8?B?Qk1aZWxFWktvcVJpSlVyR3pMUEJPOFRsRjRMU0wyczdqck5qZ1hONnVLeFln?= =?utf-8?B?TldmQ09CMGNyVmlaYmdIcFROUDErekFJMVV0SGxkM0NKbjd0MUdYeXBVVXVZ?= =?utf-8?B?V3k5U1FNT0gvSExucndXYkp2NHlzUitsNGo1M1RzcE1GUVd6c0FBaldqOHIr?= =?utf-8?B?amFsRWVZVzFSYTB1cjk4bW1yWGVyYndHSnNWRGhOZk53RjgwcW1wUGcraExn?= =?utf-8?B?c3I1MktvTFhlUjRiaDMvK2JFMGdabTRvOVl4YTVwclFIRGNiZzc4RkRkWWw2?= =?utf-8?B?Ym1keGlFcEhkUmNKalZyaTR0ZkxiVWlIYS9kVFRoUC9SUE54dG5CSzR3eDFY?= =?utf-8?B?L1MxODc3RDZabUx3MmNCRFkxRlpkZzdlWVJER1pYVnVDZWpyODF3cW91R0xu?= =?utf-8?Q?WnFbxDbGaQg8lfKEsDc97tU=3D?= X-OriginatorOrg: indexexchange.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9d5cd250-6cda-454e-cbd8-08db39b36dd6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: YQXPR01MB4756.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Apr 2023 11:05:00.9713 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: b07c0690-22b8-4366-8d8d-7b845d088e18 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: rb+ZgGskXdeL9LmY94MjMqyOnKWegfmMiB/LRwr2cJWh0Ya0Z2yg52Bu1Spx2RoT5BCwKN0UFy7Uj3SgUPhRsRH4yPBv7Blm0aOS+ThWuKyWU0BLUduhaznyo+4ToS2x X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: YT2PR01MB10746 Subject: Re: [Bloat] Hey, all, what about bandlength? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 11:05:03 -0000 Which fits the word "bandlength" better than my discussion, which was an experiment in explaining that latency has a cost to someone who doesn't know waht it means. --dave On 4/9/23 19:04, David Lang via Bloat wrote: > TCP ramps up it's speed fairly slowly, and backs off fairly > drastically when it is told (via ECN or a dropped packet) that it has > hit the limit. As a result, a single TCP session is not going to fully > utilize a connection. There are people who do large, high speed > transfers over long distances on a regular basis (think movie studios > sending uncompressed movie footage around the world for processing). > To fully utilize their bandwidth, they use protocols that involve lots > of connections operating in parallel > > David Lang > > On Sun, 9 Apr 2023, Dave Collier-Brown via Bloat wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 16:06:54 -0400 >> From: Dave Collier-Brown via Bloat >> Reply-To: Dave Collier-Brown >> To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Hey, all, what about bandlength? >> >> Consider a connection to my ISP as being an empty water-pipe, and I >> only want to measure the flow from the waterworks to me. In this case >> the waterworks is Rogers in Toronto, and the numbers come from me >> measuring the link with the Waveform bufferbloat tool. >> >> The ISP promises me 1 Gbit/s of water. OK, there is no such thing, >> but you get the idea (;-)) >> >> Let's consider the no-latency case. >> >> * The ISP turns on the tap, and it takes half an RTT to get to me, >> one way. Let that be 1 millisecond, 0.001s of delay. >> * Once the delay is over, I get (1.0s - 0.001s) * 1 Gbit/s =3D 0.999 >> Gb/s. The 0.999 seconds is transfer time, and that transfer is at >> full speed of the pipe, so it adds up to 0.999 Gb/s >> * That's pretty good. >> >> Now let's consider the best possible case where there is latency, but >> only one delay of 0.456s. That basically means that only one >> transfer happens in the second, so there is only once change for >> latency to hurt me. >> >> * the one-way delay is still 0.001s, but there is also 0.231s of >> latency, for a delay of 0.232s >> * (1.0s - (0.001s + 0.231s) ) * 1 Gbit/s =3D >> * 1.0s - 0.232s =3D 0.549s * 1 Gbit/s =3D 0.768 GB/s >> * Cut by a quarter, by one packet's delay >> >> What about the worst case? >> >> * It's not worst, but a pretty common case is a busy link with >> 1500-byte packets >> * One packet is 12,000 bits >> * In one second we can transfer 1,000,000,000 bits / >> 12,000bits/packet =3D 83,333.3 packets >> * Maybe that many delays, too? >> * Fortunately, no >> >> I personally observed 456.2 Mbit/s, about 54% of a gigabit at home, >> so it's more like the latency cut my bandwidth in half >> >> --dave >> >> >> On 4/8/23 22:32, Michael Richardson via Bloat wrote: >> >> >> Dave Collier-Brown >> >> wrote: >> >> Dave Collier-Brown via >> Bloat >> wrote: >>> >> >> They he said "bandlength" >> >> >> >> > That sounded like an odd name, but the idea was cool: >> >> >> >> > If I have a bandwidth of 1 Mbit/S, but it takes 2 seconds to >> deliver >> >> 1 > Mbit, do I have a bandlength of only 1/2 Mbit/S? >> >> >> >> Is that because there is 2seconds of delay? >> >> > Well, 2 seconds elapsed time, 1 of which is delay. >> >> Ah, would that include the delay to ask for the data? >> (A DNS request, or an HTTP GET) >> >> >> >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, >> including any and all attachments, contains confidential information >> intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any >> dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly >> prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have >> received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender >> immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from >> your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not >> constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by >> electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract >> amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms >> contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and >> the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same >> is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. >> > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including a= ny and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for= the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, co= pying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confident= iality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify= the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message fr= om your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not co= nstitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electro= nic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or= an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this teleco= mmunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal docume= ntation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been= signed by an authorized signatory.