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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b4c1e6fdff6b1234e1fe1df6b106302a; Mon, 15 Jul 2024 14:26:49 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------l0yZlZfyOF7PJ4pubERPU5aO" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:26:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: bloat References: <9B529996-9FF0-4487-8F74-B01230E6FCA1@viagenie.ca> <11567.1720044376@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <8d89d7ec-558e-4498-9457-3c6dd90eb03f@rogers.com> <8FBDAF2F-DF18-4FFD-A589-EF2323B6820A@gmx.de> Content-Language: en-US From: David Collier-Brown In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22501 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Subject: Re: [Bloat] An ACM Queue article about bloat and LibraQoS X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 14:26:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------l0yZlZfyOF7PJ4pubERPU5aO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's see... Found them! score A+ D % up 9.1 31.8 29% down 163 456.2 36% A+ figures were only 20-30% of the bloated D figure (:-() I showed the article with both graphs to an outside reader and he spotted it instantly, and asked why I was only getting a tiny fraction of the "bloated" throughput. --dave On 2024-07-15 09:12, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Dave, > > >> On 15. Jul 2024, at 12:59, David Collier-Brown via Bloat wrote: >> >> On 2024-07-15 05:18, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> nice! I only would have wished for the A-grade waveform result as well, it is a bit of a downer that the last figure show the unpleasant 'before' status only. >>> >>> Regards >>> Sebastian >> That was a deliberate action on my part: the "after" status shows much smaller throughput numbers, leading observant readers to ask if improving latency didn't destroy one's bandwidth. > [SM] Ah, I see. But just for our discussion here, how much (potential) capacity did you need to treade in for decent responsiveness? > >> I suspect that the throughputs "with bloat" are greatly exaggerated... from counting the extra data that fills the bloated buffers (;-)) > [SM] Good point... especially for upload tests, I occasionally see numbers which I know for a fact to be impossible (abovre the gross capacity of my access link) and I wonder whether all tests actually do proper reporting of the grand average capacity numbers. This should not be rocket science: take the start time of the first maesasurement flow and the end time of the last measurement flow and divide the total number of payload bytes trasferred by the total time this took. > >> --dave >> >> >>>> On 14. Jul 2024, at 23:30, David Collier-Brown via Bloat wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a new article on ACM Queue, athttps://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3674953 >>>> "If you're an ISP and all your customers hate you, take heart. This is now a solvable problem." >>>> It's part of a tongue-in-cheek series called "You Don't Know Jack", and it's about Bufferbloat and the LibreQoS project. >>>> --dave >>>> -- >>>> David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify >>>> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest >>>> davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Bloat mailing list >>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> -- >> David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify >> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest >> davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain --------------l0yZlZfyOF7PJ4pubERPU5aO Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Let's see... Found them!

score A+ D %
up 9.1 31.8 29%
down 163 456.2 36%

A+ figures were only 20-30% of the bloated D figure (:-()

I showed the article with both graphs to an outside reader and he spotted it instantly, and asked why I was only getting a tiny fraction of the "bloated" throughput.

--dave



On 2024-07-15 09:12, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
Hi Dave,



On 15. Jul 2024, at 12:59, David Collier-Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

On 2024-07-15 05:18, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:

Hi Dave,

nice! I only would have wished for the A-grade waveform result as well, it is a bit of a downer that the last figure show the unpleasant 'before' status only.

Regards
Sebastian

That was a deliberate action on my part: the "after" status shows much smaller throughput numbers, leading observant readers to ask if improving latency didn't destroy one's bandwidth.

	[SM] Ah, I see. But just for our discussion here, how much (potential) capacity did you need to treade in for decent responsiveness?


I suspect that the throughputs "with bloat" are greatly exaggerated... from counting the extra data that fills the bloated buffers (;-))

	[SM] Good point... especially for upload tests, I occasionally see numbers which I know for a fact to be impossible (abovre the gross capacity of my access link) and I wonder whether all tests actually do proper reporting of the grand average capacity numbers. This should not be rocket science: take the start time of the first maesasurement flow and the end time of the last measurement flow and divide the total number of payload bytes trasferred by the total time this took. 


--dave




          

            
On 14. Jul 2024, at 23:30, David Collier-Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

I have a new article on ACM Queue, at https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3674953
"If you're an ISP and all your customers hate you, take heart. This is now a solvable problem."
It's part of a tongue-in-cheek series called "You Don't Know Jack", and it's about Bufferbloat and the LibreQoS project.
--dave
-- 
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


          

          
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


        

        
-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


      

      

    

    
-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain

  


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