From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sonic301-6.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic301-6.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.129.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF3243CB4B for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 14:33:07 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s2048; t=1553106787; bh=y9kYP+Vk8DqNyfPukbrYxdI0x1ZFFoKDkmovaX6dF+c=; h=Reply-To:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=b/mIGQ8fK5j0LzoOB5o2b3Ka+mcXzm5ATragNLfmHKQvlcECp4uvijqMrNsClCikFxdqhBwWNEMhUAnzAtHEYWBoZVI5E4wleA+uNH3x/xfODYL0ciquq5LoZDxX+mj1AnFgnmvKXuMi4EYDH/Q4eEB7jn66ePAPKfYdDJCi/arJ0rsj5bZPfzPkhtQf6F36k8Fvs3xx282f7osBhXWq/HEJRh37Dqiu5uJe44cp3uRFzsn+VKlCz0Q5Nsly94orEtfiZpanIUN9AyZ9igbyJd2TOxLWbxLmBA2vEXYMTEj9y1kqT+U+xzL0sIFBS+VmmfltN1ZRpzWmRuhhhhZzOQ== X-YMail-OSG: DoLKwaIVM1nlgavYNfMupmtn7PStgfzlhLid94wtAxPIAL0RxaAZ_uTxEMQn0Ji KRrNpPdxERIaBjlSDa6hc_ZmiKuJ0V7dA.642XqoUlTxkmwq7PNvn12hlm._QL0yqzPM6UryV.xC YCcfIMAEiwIRNuJ3lPnMaB3qCirNFNnu9Mq1CNqs8LeFDHzPU4bmJ5YKiAgrajfcUrfLwU3T0lLU .3TSpZToC7oEisWouINQS7P94Yph7Mm4TdQWcECsN7tG.EZpf28eTp_yY7bbke.yV1z7y7WNhs.w taGMiKVAkcKJ1BBqU6LOXoy2b6bF6GkyscHUb7NvxyI8e8CjP1nHr3Bng3rbZzY3Y9efIeW2d83r SJNQ0v47N5OJEqtrLRC2LAvvhXEixSyMqlvlQYWLFqhhlyCzGgq77gL6lmAkLO7mMegRMD1Y1JxG ENXn2lsRVK0y_PCiBU8GNH5yUQYl3eGs94OUkbWSmdhaWIwF9UzKTmXTcKc22EH4pAlXop7y4iDk NRUNDINAbYDCMY3fHvOAITQUHQuQ7FwoBKdvDK85q4RjSNHxz2o3lE3bsxu8I5IKWK.wG3n_mxZw I545z3ASo4rC4PkMr3AfdogsnypQ0k565baMDaM6q4fexFAbTK87eRU.z8bv3GMXtOv9ozY3XD2N nY443XzcmMdvEuyUqyvsoDXVAl7g9FFyiDuOBXherDhBHm5_5Zfi56dOr7CgHZoLpgu20F8ZKHUw RkWQVcjPVuwaW8Hwns_985BRc5XkErgByHiH91zR9U5_33K.FMw8cTERKwjcN1cM6vBrTvV9OtBM yl.vFY5eN1C4EKN6kTRDYR0M5JAQYbSIGzLjmrVwT0Yzh.3YsaYuj2_04QQ9gFOVan63hQft9.kk PEcK3IAoknTuPVIUKou.7YOMxPcEvBwF5UxGnKWvVHsiGH.Q6OHVVBt5lAzujkf1HdNFFzhNl6Tx 3meGE_sWWa5Z5QihJWnztX_.cJxwlHnrPRyj9jhXiZZb.Ki6.2jpk4ygSmhkQXaY1OMAxWJYWp1r OA1vWCTWY4Sp8uIb2JsOppsrLo8CYbczPBzTJMUV87TcGep_yRT185t06HPfjs_p1AO0wW5aNvT1 MZ4vrLzk8qic4.r8- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 18:33:07 +0000 Received: from CPEbc4dfba21363-CMbc4dfba21360.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (EHLO [192.168.0.15]) ([99.240.251.181]) by smtp402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1fa9c5cdab1b4f7cd545ae9f0231eb8b; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 18:33:04 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: davecb@spamcop.net To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: From: David Collier-Brown Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 14:33:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BBEE8A75127C36987DEFC9F8" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 18:33:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BBEE8A75127C36987DEFC9F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2019, Dave Taht wrote: > >> Another ietf idea that makes me crazy is the motto of "no host >> changes" in homenet, and "dumb endpoints" - when we live in an age >> where we have quad cores and AI coprocessors in everybody's hands. Dumb endpoints is a huge change from the design of the internet (and ARPAnet), with a dumb middle and smart ends:  I suspect the original commentator was talking about mere /relative/ dumbness... > > This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants > 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform > basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic > function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different > factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon. Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) The oldest machine I use is a dps8-m, and I'll be slightly amazed if we can provide native TCP. Right now I ssh into the virtual machine that's running it, all so I can continue to fiddle around with Multics. --dave (DavidBrown.TSDC@HI-Multics.ARPA) c-b -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain --------------BBEE8A75127C36987DEFC9F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019, Dave Taht wrote:

Another ietf idea that makes me crazy is the motto of "no host changes" in homenet, and "dumb endpoints" - when we live in an age where we have quad cores and AI coprocessors in everybody's hands.

Dumb endpoints is a huge change from the design of the internet (and ARPAnet), with a dumb middle and smart ends:  I suspect the original commentator was talking about mere relative dumbness...


This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but making older host stop working is frowned upon.

Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the dog-years we use in this silly business (;-))

The oldest machine I use is a dps8-m, and I'll be slightly amazed if we can provide native TCP. Right now I ssh into the virtual machine that's running it, all so I can continue to fiddle around with Multics.

--dave (DavidBrown.TSDC@HI-Multics.ARPA) c-b

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |                      -- Mark Twain
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