From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B602C3CB41; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 18:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.77] (c-98-35-207-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.35.207.65]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93BFF1B326; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:04:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 93BFF1B326 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1679781856; bh=pxGDC25fb3De2vp/2CGHWv9qctj3Sr7v3MtzHDrF8vA=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=Zzi6wNRWDibrByZ4nGbt5LViIABlYc3zAe+5ysZ8Gw/pI8schxd2/ZvMriNsG9Sns 66HAMaEf6xdV7imMxrRdjrZu7vL2Q+kPrDAd9RtRL+q+jblvogs0T7DQwsXogD4U6J RVi4ICKeYpvYdcLMPb3UOpTdlR0tdnqTBh8iwAo0= In-Reply-To: References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 00010121567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true X-Blue-Identity: !l=1994&o=43&fo=2666&pl=1904&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&m=!%3AODY4NDIxODAtZDYzYS00ZmFiLTk1N2EtZjE0NWVlYzg4ZGQ1%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3AMDAwMTAxMjE1Njc3MDJkNQ%3D%3D%3AANSWERED&p=1641&q=SHOW User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----NJ2VJMJAR6E2FCNZAMNNZJ836TFIVS" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:04:05 -0700 To: Bruce Perens CC: Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink , dan ,Frantisek Borsik , libreqos ,Rpm , bloat Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 22:04:17 -0000 ------NJ2VJMJAR6E2FCNZAMNNZJ836TFIVS Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Bruce, I think you may be the right guy to solve this=2E I too remember= the days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs=2E I found a structured wire fire = alarm install to cost $100k for our building or $20k per unit=2E The labor = and materials is about $25k=2E The other $75k is liability related costs, s= imilar to a bike helmet, $10 in parts, $40 in insurance=2E So it's not labo= r nor equipment that drives the expenses=2E My opinion is poor people shoul= dn't have to pay for insurance to insurance companies, companies that figur= e figures for a living=2E A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cabl= e system looped with Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to = protect the egress escape ladder for about $10 to $15K=2E Don't need an SLA= =2E We've basically priced protecting human lives to only rich people=2E = We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of "expens= e bloat=2E" Look at Boston public water for an example=2E Way too expensiv= e to pipe water in from 15 miles away in the early days=2E So people who di= d it claimed alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by prov= iding clean and pure potable public water=2E=C2=A0 Alcholics would choose p= athogen free water over spirits=2E Rich people got enough water for themsel= ves and even for their private fountains so society stopped this initiative= =2E It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health was= tied to public health=2E And public health was being impacted because path= ogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public water would= by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies=2E The fire chief was pu= t in charge=2E See Ties That Bind https://upittpress=2Eorg/books/97808229= 61475/ Now, in the U=2ES, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet= =2E It's taken for granted=2E I think it's on us to do similar for digita= l communication networks=2E They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we= need to get public safety elements engaged too=2E Bob On Mar 25, 2023, = 2:08 PM, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote: >On Sat, Mar = 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < >starlink@lists=2Ebuff= erbloat=2Enet> wrote: > >> The point of the thread is that we still do not = treat digital >> communications infrastructure as life support critical=2E = > > >When I was younger there was a standard way to do this=2E Fire alarms = had >a >dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm >st= ation=2E >This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble= >notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse >polarit= y >to indicate alarm=2E If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the= >boiler in the building=2E > >Today my home fire alarms are wireless and h= ave cellular back to their >main >Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke,= and temperature=2E This would >not >meet insurance requirements for a comm= ercial building, they still have >all >of the sensors wired, with cellular = backup=2E > >I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical d= igital >communications would really cost=2E Start with metal conduit and >f= ire-resistant wiring throughout the structure=2E Provide redundant power >f= or >*every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due = >to >storms)=2E AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes= >that >fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in= a >generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we >ju= st >had=2E Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree=2E Supervise e= very >home so that interruptions are serviced automatically=2E Provide a 4-= hour >SLA=2E > >The phone company used to do what you are asking for=2E The= high prices >this >required are the main reason that everyone has jumped o= ff of using the >legacy telco for telephony=2E ------NJ2VJMJAR6E2FCNZAMNNZJ836TFIVS Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bruce,
I think you may be the right guy to solve thi= s=2E I too remember the days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs=2E

=
I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $10= 0k for our building or $20k per unit=2E The labor and materials is about $2= 5k=2E The other $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, = $10 in parts, $40 in insurance=2E So it's not labor nor equipment that driv= es the expenses=2E My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insu= rance to insurance companies, companies that figure figures for a living=2E=

A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passiv= e cable system looped with Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nes= ts to protect the egress escape ladder for about $10 to $15K=2E Don't need = an SLA=2E We've basically priced protecting human lives to only rich people= =2E

We need to use technology and our clev= erness to fix this version of "expense bloat=2E"

Look at Boston public water for an example=2E Way too expensive to pi= pe water in from 15 miles away in the early days=2E So people who did it cl= aimed alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing c= lean and pure potable public water=2E=C2=A0 Alcholics would choose pathogen= free water over spirits=2E Rich people got enough water for themselves and= even for their private fountains so society stopped this initiative=2E
=
It was a motivated doctor who taught rich peop= le that their health was tied to public health=2E And public health was bei= ng impacted because pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get po= table public water would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies= =2E The fire chief was put in charge=2E See Ties That Bind

<= div dir=3D"auto">h= ttps://upittpress=2Eorg/books/9780822961475/

Now, in the U=2ES, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet= =2E It's taken for granted=2E

I think it's= on us to do similar for digital communication networks=2E They're needed f= ar beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety elements engaged = too=2E

Bob
On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens=2Ecom> wrote:


On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjmcm= ahon via Starlink < starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
The point of the thread is = that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life su= pport critical=2E

When = I was younger there was a standard way to do this=2E Fire alarms had a dedi= cated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station=2E This= wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble notification = if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarity to indicate al= arm=2E If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the boiler= in the building=2E

To= day my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their main C= omcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature=2E This would not = meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have= all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup=2E

=
I don't think you are considering what life-support-cr= itical digital communications would really cost=2E Start with metal conduit= and fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure=2E Provide redundant po= wer for every fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interrupt= ion here due to storms)=2E AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" = tombstone boxes that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive ou= t and plug in a generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage= like we just had=2E Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree=2E S= upervise every home so that interruptions are serviced automatically=2E Pro= vide a 4-hour SLA=2E

The phone= company used to do what you are asking for=2E The high prices this require= d are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the legacy telc= o for telephony=2E
------NJ2VJMJAR6E2FCNZAMNNZJ836TFIVS--