From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from nm24-vm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm24-vm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.115.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF97F3B260 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:25:41 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s2048; t=1480361141; bh=ObmUQ4M7zGa1zWrj+Gu/JBb8OX4XvC7eHLRYvqnVyXU=; h=Reply-To:Subject:References:To:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=p9zuF7v5K7mdIioqjnOxqLAqYwPSIGh9nPwTqeb0ygpYSH9x+g6XfkidKav3DT5wycycUvEqFSZ6c2iW/wp+6ISe/IEPETFeEM9CqOLn24L8A1ZWJ3xPrFzZRRCM9EAiv9slEmtTzolhEH0CZ0mXejqz4UKxoorQQ+K1WDgDw25aPvEJoQmACmM+0IEC//XPyThtYEo/5fkzRc5/R9rqMhGKQqcCVpcKxAB+zOzon9YfhO6AIygzIQvH792298mmOmS2pOeYXlJPbzIJjYYwRT5PqvzjPtyExtFIhFfISp6tpep1yhjRP1CmL8Tr3uREtASMQFvDrJzTv8p/PaI1Fg== Received: from [66.196.81.155] by nm24.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2016 19:25:41 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.157] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2016 19:25:41 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp117.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2016 19:25:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 483522.96338.bm@smtp117.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 9X2m7cgVM1k8eua5wuArodQgno1OvS_q5rMJFG6HGiyudan fNSxjBEwfFdvYSvp.TNCPO7WZINH42_POjKRRr7yY6nNfxuMc3XCifvt1kVe IvdVDDhIELgXSTtvMQzj676BKB5sqMXxmyMZr4aEQIbQ9lwoJSyVPpz6K_eI dWJo9RJAG7frMzulg2fcPstNurHjt4uW1fbURmtM0IlwZQz3S6G8s3qfmxvn CWLFYyKGjEblmh6528RFYQW9Wr.xdK9Sg1frOZUEeo82DjnVt8EfZRUoxe2D sD7sRYXEiZADFb4b8bJncDs0.4D3sTdEcSqaM_MuGQdTfMw6Cs_x1eea_UhX 2nQ1WjodlkFpKQsocbon1dElMA_1RjrgLd4I9u3QT3FC2mggNqkXZr6avnyI bnvyz4Fmfv6CdOzTT6wPXI2zHvBItD9.Su7GhhaOFfNOYXdE9tPYfgVFY6us ZrljFp51lRrRiiMk3L_xHstnTZb_dDPNP7nvvOOeXhIpSzjXHRUQ.PqCnZKV KmO0nwvQxNgU7uYJLdf1gKvcyHdv.O7OWwatVY4kOU5XsCXbeFJOTcJo9ptt Y38lt9q9Rri2zFyBeZ8ojIkWl X-Yahoo-SMTP: sltvjZWswBCRD.ElTuB1l9j6s9wRYPpuyTNWOE5oEg-- Reply-To: davecb@spamcop.net References: <836b6c89-d7a0-49e1-e1b4-8e98b9263c1d@pollere.com> <8A0CE391-C77E-4B3F-B2B0-7F9FDDB8DFCF@superduper.net> To: Simon Barber , davecb@spamcop.net Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net From: David Collier-Brown Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:25:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8A0CE391-C77E-4B3F-B2B0-7F9FDDB8DFCF@superduper.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9C1CA13E956315E133554FCA" Subject: Re: [Bloat] How to "sell" improvement X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:25:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9C1CA13E956315E133554FCA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, especially for * the performance-reporting tools' own page and also for * some well-known, moderately complex ones. Not the minimalist Google front page, but perhaps a particular query... --dave On 28/11/16 01:58 PM, Simon Barber wrote: > Web page load time. > > Simon > >> On Nov 28, 2016, at 10:37 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: >> >> In this context, I'd say latency and the effect of bloat reduction on it and transfer time. >> >> Dave Taht can say much more (;-)) >> I'm just echoing his concern, from the point of view of a capacity planner. >> >> --dave c-b >> [I'm using latency as the time from the request to the first response, transfer time as the time from the first response to the last response, which may be 0, and sleep/think time as the time from the last response to the next request, for a given stream of requests and responses, AKA "transactions"] >> >> >> On 28/11/16 12:59 PM, Kathleen Nichols wrote: >>> That's a good idea in general, but what are you measuring for your >>> "actual performance"? >>> Raw throughput? Goodput (which requires a bit of processing)? Then what >>> about delay? >>> >>> On 11/28/16 9:41 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: >>>> Put the speed-test /into the router/, with a big red button to turn >>>> fq_codel on and off. >>>> >>>> * The performance reporting graphs can then run on a browser page >>>> for as long as you like, while you do other things, and go back to >>>> the page and see what it's been like. * Have a line for "perfect" >>>> performance, and anyone can see how close you're system is coming to >>>> it. * Have a button for a synthetic load test, of some shortish >>>> duration, and, * Put it on normal Linux hosts too, so you can test >>>> end-to-end. >>>> >>>> >>>> This has the advantage that it's code-first, so you don't have to >>>> convince the uninterested, and from it you can write a small and >>>> limited RFC to tell everyone else how you did it. >>>> >>>> As each new improvement comes along, actual performance slowly gets >>>> closer and closer to the optimal performance line... >>>> >>>> --dave >>>> >>>> >>>> On 28/11/16 10:21 AM, Jonathan Foulkes wrote: >>>>> Thanks for the Introduction Rich, and thanks again to you and many >>>>> others on this list for all your contributions over the years >>>>> helping to combat bloat. >>>>> >>>>> This product was born of my own frustration with finding a way to >>>>> help neighbors and family get a simple off-the-shelf solution that >>>>> even non-technical users can deploy. >>>>> >>>>> I look forward to participating more actively on this list. >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Rich Brown >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been exchanging a few emails with Jonathan Foulkes from >>>>>> evenroute.com. He tells me that his company is installing OpenWrt >>>>>> on a commercial, off the shelf (COTS) TP-Link router and selling >>>>>> them on commercially. His "secret sauce" is an auto-update >>>>>> facility and improved setup software, which includes a >>>>>> rate-detection step that operates continually to adjust the >>>>>> fq_codel parameters to the actual line rate. You can take a look >>>>>> at IQrouter.com, or look them up on Amazon. >>>>>> >>>>>> This might be a solution to our current conundrum about not >>>>>> having an easy solution that solves our family's networking >>>>>> problem. I'm going to get one of these and try it out. >>>>>> >>>>>> He has been following our bufferbloat and make-fifi-fast work >>>>>> closely, as well as the work on LEDE, which he'll consider once >>>>>> it hits a stable point. I have invited him to join this list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Welcome, Jonathan. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list >>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>> -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify >>>> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest >>>> davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list >>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> -- >> David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify >> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest >> davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain --------------9C1CA13E956315E133554FCA Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yes, especially for
  • the performance-reporting tools' own page and also for
  • some well-known, moderately complex ones.
Not the minimalist Google front page, but perhaps a particular query...

--dave

On 28/11/16 01:58 PM, Simon Barber wrote:
Web page load time.

Simon


On Nov 28, 2016, at 10:37 AM, David Collier-Brown <davec-b@rogers.com> wrote:

In this context, I'd say latency and the effect of bloat reduction on it and transfer time.

Dave Taht can say much more (;-))
I'm just echoing his concern, from the point of view of a capacity planner.

--dave c-b
[I'm using latency as the time from the request to the first response, transfer time as the time from the first response to the last response, which may be 0, and sleep/think time as the time from the last response to the next request, for a given stream of requests and responses, AKA "transactions"]


On 28/11/16 12:59 PM, Kathleen Nichols wrote:

That's a good idea in general, but what are you measuring for your
"actual performance"?
Raw throughput? Goodput (which requires a bit of processing)? Then what
about delay?

On 11/28/16 9:41 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote:

Put the speed-test /into the router/, with a big red button to turn
fq_codel on and off.

* The performance reporting graphs can then run on a browser page
for as long as you like, while you do other things, and go back to
the page and see what it's been like. * Have a line for "perfect"
performance, and anyone can see how close you're system is coming to
it. * Have a button for a synthetic load test, of some shortish
duration, and, * Put it on normal Linux hosts too, so you can test
end-to-end.


This has the advantage that it's code-first, so you don't have to
convince the uninterested, and from it you can write a small and
limited RFC to tell everyone else how you did it.

As each new improvement comes along, actual performance slowly gets
closer and closer to the optimal performance line...

--dave


On 28/11/16 10:21 AM, Jonathan Foulkes wrote:

Thanks for the Introduction Rich, and thanks again to you and many
others on this list for all your contributions over the years
helping to combat bloat.

This product was born of my own frustration with finding a way to
help neighbors and family get a simple off-the-shelf solution that
even non-technical users can deploy.

I look forward to participating more actively on this list.

Jonathan


On Nov 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
wrote:

I have been exchanging a few emails with Jonathan Foulkes from
evenroute.com. He tells me that his company is installing OpenWrt
on a commercial, off the shelf (COTS) TP-Link router and selling
them on commercially. His "secret sauce" is an auto-update
facility and improved setup software, which includes a
rate-detection step that operates continually to adjust the
fq_codel parameters to the actual line rate. You can take a look
at IQrouter.com, or look them up on Amazon.

This might be a solution to our current conundrum about not
having an easy solution that solves our family's networking
problem. I'm going to get one of these and try it out.

He has been following our bufferbloat and make-fifi-fast work
closely, as well as the work on LEDE, which he'll consider once
it hits a stable point. I have invited him to join this list.

Welcome, Jonathan.



_______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

-- David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |                      -- Mark Twain



_______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |                      -- Mark Twain

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat





-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |                      -- Mark Twain
--------------9C1CA13E956315E133554FCA--