From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6C733CB41; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 18:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0AB251B252; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:42:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 0AB251B252 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1680043368; bh=wqDKmJUzwPMdZaq/JlaU0XQVEl+6sy1WPX5cm4HOsMc=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=mobv+2eIcXRG8epzVMsnx1G9fYsRru9nTDX7rvJTu5ek7iunr/72mJOXEghG+tuXV whAfVOuELXRR2smgX7sutgq6cb57SYoaUX7n7sIVD4tZroVPi5kIEZNDFsKRX8Ll2v xDnzGZzSO/4nk0LAmuSXJk3/Z439zqCWIpUclKfY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:42:47 -0700 From: rjmcmahon To: dan Cc: Frantisek Borsik , Larry Press , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , libreqos , Sebastian Moeller , David Lang In-Reply-To: References: <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <81945e3138c8a33a83ecd401778a2bf7@rjmcmahon.com> <32p0n880-7737-9q9p-4s2o-10nr071os6r7@ynat.uz> Message-ID: X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 22:42:49 -0000 If it doesn't align with privacy & security, what we know of physics, what can be achieved by world class engineering, what will be funded by market models or behaviors based upon payments & receipts, increase job creation for blue collar workers, reduce power consumption, etc. then I agree FiWi should, and likely will, fail. Russia came very late to the industrial revolution because its leaders were against technological progress, e.g. trains. That was a critical juncture for them. https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/jhoran/2014/08/31/transportation-and-industrialization/ It seems likely to me we are at our own critical juncture. I hope we get it more or less right so that inclusive human societies, societies that learn to care for others, built from our technologies, technologies derived from the works & ideas of those who came before us, can benefit long after we each depart as has been done with potable water supplies for many (but not all.) Bob PS. I tend to ignore things that have no chance. I find it better to spend my time & energy on things that do have some possibility of impact. I find our lives are too short to do otherwise. > IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to > fruition. No one wants it. I don’t want it, I see nothing but > flaws, single points of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy > in homes and business, and general consumer mistrust of such a model > and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access. I > will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every way > you can talk about. I cannot find a single benefit it offers. > > On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon > wrote: > >> Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over >> ten+ >> years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required. >> Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises >> regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as >> they >> have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are >> >> also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect >> >> that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the >> sunk >> mistakes get magnified every passing year. >> >> A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the >> opportunity >> to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and >> also >> reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency * >> distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable. >> >> Bob >> >>> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/ >> >>> >> >>> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside >>> LA, >> >>> but 100k+ people so not tiny. >> >>> >> >>> David Lang >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas >> >>>> partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow >> >>>> started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. >> >>>> https://www.usda.gov/broadband >> >>>> >> >>>> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm >>> bill >> >>>> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New >>> Deal >> >>>> after the Great Depression. >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >> > https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/ >> >>>> >> >>>> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our >>> urban >> >>>> populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. >>> These >> >>>> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they >>> get >> >>>> access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city >>> infrastructures. >> >>>> >> >>>> Bob >> >>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and >>> the like >> >>>>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in >>> the US. >> >>>>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> All the best, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Frank >> >>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >>>>> >> >>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon >>> (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com) >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get >>> this >> >>>>>> (structural separation) right. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed >>> spectrum to >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for >>> these >> >>>>>> OTA >> >>>>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality >>> and >> >>>>>> factual >> >>>>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got >>> rid of >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli >>> Noam. >> >>>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we >>> get >> >>>>>> January >> >>>>>> 6th and an insurrection. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three >>> times a >> >>>>>> day. >> >>>>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this >> >>>>>> obligation >> >>>>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual >> >>>>>> franchise >> >>>>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to >>> provide >> >>>>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed >> >>>>>> miserably. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be >>> "competition" >> >>>>>> in >> >>>>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural >> >>>>>> monopoly >> >>>>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights >>> (mostly >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC >>> for the >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven >> >>>>>> empirically >> >>>>>> in the U.S. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their >>> budgets. >> >>>>>> And >> >>>>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly >>> the FCC >> >>>>>> that >> >>>>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet >>> Jackson's >> >>>>>> breast >> >>>>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function >>> well. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for >>> their >> >>>>>> "news." >> >>>>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to >> >>>>>> emotional >> >>>>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily >>> provide >> >>>>>> this >> >>>>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment >>> providers >> >>>>>> claim >> >>>>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI >>> loads!!" >> >>>>>> and >> >>>>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that >> >>>>>> trigger >> >>>>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which >>> is a >> >>>>>> sad >> >>>>>> theme for undereducated populations. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a >>> public >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes >>> addiction >> >>>>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for >> >>>>>> ourselves. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Bob >> >>>>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class >>> "textbook": >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >> > https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> [1] >> >>>>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1] >> >>>>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local >> >>>>>> government >> >>>>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the >> >>>>>> worl... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> cis471.blogspot.com [1] [1] >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ------------------------- >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> From: Starlink on >>> behalf of >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink >>> >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM >> >>>>>> To: David Lang >> >>>>>> Cc: dan ; Frantisek Borsik >> >>>>>> ; libreqos >> >>>>>> ; Dave Taht via Starlink >> >>>>>> ; rjmcmahon >> >>>>>> ; >> >>>>>> bloat >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical >>> infrastructure >> >>>>>> w/Comcast chat >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi David, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >> >>>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water >> >>>>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications >>> infrastructure is >> >>>>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a >>> path in >> >>>>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different >> >>>>> perspective. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into >> >>>>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with >>> other >> >>>>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see >>> a PtP >> >>>>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a >>> viable >> >>>>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all >>> the >> >>>>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC >>> this >> >>>>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS >>> wiring has >> >>>>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current >>> fiber >> >>>>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active >> >>>>> component >> >>>>> >> >>>>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal >>> management. >> >>>>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these >> >>>>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about >>> life >> >>>>> times of decades). >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is >>> doing >> >>>>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and >>> in >> >>>>> many >> >>>>> >> >>>>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from >>> building >> >>>>> such >> >>>>> >> >>>>> systems. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... >> >>>>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just >>> think >> >>>>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we >>> want >> >>>>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place >>> to >> >>>>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple >>> ISPs >> >>>>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There >>> are >> >>>>> two >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ways I see to address this structural problem: >> >>>>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors >>> for >> >>>>> "reasonable" prices >> >>>>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain >>> the >> >>>>> access network >> >>>>> >> >>>>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we >>> already >> >>>>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a >> >>>>> spanner >> >>>>> >> >>>>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, >>> but >> >>>>> will >> >>>>> >> >>>>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as >>> would be >> >>>>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My >>> subjective >> >>>>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would >>> offer a >> >>>>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do >>> best, >> >>>>> offer >> >>>>> >> >>>>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the >>> access >> >>>>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow >>> a >> >>>>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to >>> convert >> >>>>> to FTTH first.... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I >>> understand >> >>>>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses >>> hooked up >> >>>>> to >> >>>>> >> >>>>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house >>> network >> >>>>> design in a future-proof way... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Regards >> >>>>> Sebastian >> >>>>> >> >>>>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, >>> just >> >>>>> that I can see why it is happening. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> David Lang >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Starlink mailing list >> >>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>>> >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Links: >> >>>>> ------ >> >>>>> [1] >> >>>>> >>> >> > https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Links: >> >>>>> ------ >> >>>>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com >> >>>>> [2] tel:+421919416714 >> >>>>> [3] tel:+420775230885 >> >>>> > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com