From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00E353B2A4 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 13:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.50] ([80.141.30.63]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M7pku-1gExU53VQW-00vMRm; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 19:06:30 +0200 To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net, =?UTF-8?Q?Toke_H=c3=b8iland-J=c3=b8rgensen?= References: <87in6ohm30.fsf@toke.dk> <7adae673-d701-6fe0-1d47-524320d38583@gmx.net> <1b46d724-6568-c4ee-9860-86ae504434a3@kit.edu> From: Matthias Tafelmeier Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=matthias.tafelmeier@gmx.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFJ0FzIBCADZ/hkwcprVGydMOqeqM+2k6v5e5kb4YDMKU7nMbCVmH4sn01T7Yh9kDwG5 LOMLD06BB2txjLBvTY+c0mpK+hE4pWr+i3qhU5CbVvx7jppJqCD6ZT/TA3I7NxsdixRvLIF4 UXgKQOMKPIx+aw/sp86NqzCLAMse7F0vXUjAP5YANtJid2rfr/B37BGKhqDGhi4Appz4UZOz pRov/v8JD4XScuvJnl09/oi5cDj3Mn2uqOc/G6hAt7HXsbHh4dKxd3AftqPPzEkJAmm+9Z4A SG9hy8IXms8Czimr+BGL0CnfsJlX6DCUm6mVDqT1GJyzmP4zkWcPi+2fOI4KtpV+C7+bABEB AAHNOk1hdHRoaWFzIFRhZmVsbWVpZXIgKHByaXZhdCkgPG1hdHRoaWFzLnRhZmVsbWVpZXJA Z214Lm5ldD7CwIEEEwECACsCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBBQJaWcAa BQkLqA/oAAoJEOAWT1uK3zQ7nw0H/2Pz1bf3+oDLIBjW6u5DrzqZ9kJr4zP6COObH87uCBkL qa1adzU/KphtcMZDthprPHCfrZ+coTOmbNGKbaI9g7tWraCbsXSbWQxnGZbJgHv8d2s5M7UG 07/Ao6CH3Nxp5bjZ3jZQv8PLxDnmttU1hdiWo0TGLWfkruXu6m+x0mFXiBSgYGPm2GEI1jCP vgOtExcA5DoW3tL1pLux5DzJot31NnN2Bq1ClELf+1Fosh1xB125KVKkVuP3JJ6qSDqhpQL3 TWiq5GrUmsTlAhZq3Jjl5J6aUdfaUEkXwQnStp+iNCCO5Nc06ssFUAnAJVzG8Ad6aASoqEHW 74IziHWctKnOwE0EUnQXMgEIAPICr+5yNyuVcmsv5xpmRKnzKoTjJ7xt0EPiru895LEUPN25 tJyi8PZmLciNJnEoQ231jjAloQvx1pb3cr35zzGXPTPJ5fEECZDxMWMjVvCMb4XK0YjqCF9i /uKic5zqjwRNAPEGTO/ZgS+e21lUJSmuKR6m5WQcKgBH+tqS3rodgjunnIN4UiNMxbq/VVGI CWPjdgoTkqWE3r8QthKLg4LjzILEH3HbG39l+vTwEKaP4q5xShFZjRUrZC2anBP+gQx/FbBf f3ufpCL9LF5dkywZP3NHVyaa/D8T66CTj7Rynd4NZy/qdqGMjMjEuf0RkgXF7Uar4GXmuOfr Icf/X6EAEQEAAcLAZQQYAQIADwIbDAUCWlm/4wUJC6gPsQAKCRDgFk9bit80OxP0CACnhlo5 2gpA/JElDyCTEPRNZ4MJB8tHp4HqccPE/srvF1ZMES49aGJJE+gWyTOPnCKI+Lmn3AF2ObF3 5emoNGE+JWNVWvVqknZLml2A7Bzirvj/Xee+fx4B85VGJ5ujeAenEwreg4mS5bei2SU/ITDW DV1BH5MHdmdFPKw6wsS7bF67gsr4RFeUcnWOEP4H1VEXeJrBmtRI60Qw+qG40KEUeWMBjLvs ga3pgfKK6AEtZFZbkqVKT3fSXVMAgh5OF3l0IAgjJ32oqVFIbitCUtE5ED0ttQ7tvbt90dw4 0VGeC9LHsSMvYQvSgn04znChb4ab8Tky0GB325hkf9UOJN7L Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 19:06:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1b46d724-6568-c4ee-9860-86ae504434a3@kit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha384; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dPeeUwrAyLIBJBQKTGkWltoZwY1MQ1sGu" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:AckUcRCQClm3CMyR//8Jzx8WaIBQZ0m8ktesXJcM+UL+YkGUEYh xwJ6B0C2uakHjOnUbBBYGzxdkhxs1WwVtOJPjjG104748cbgt4CvGM2D8qEaNtkKpNKVSOK MsFr0GmBH+B29B+kYghfBR38laMfO0Uho6iDigsg5tEeg35Q8xW6/5oV/eRqcRM/bpww6Xx Vhrjb7wqfFnigYtrx88FQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:vYbO9zBrNJk=:vUE6dqU6W1JdA2d9mvy6QM PbMRhwL376gapDTmgmUOrnZnZKlhMsseQX9ozM52hU/uWUv4UP6+d+yvy1IVQPhk/2T5+tYrF g82r4Svw9D+7vQNPruUghAlNQOZNBsbvCr+hfhp/786s+MGHiniJTPIjRuWh3kJo5h1aEVlKt YXoLDikqxotmuJb5qUK+AFFT6UMa8ylEetp0wjXDOZjNLa7rrbyAT3buSP893Maucif3Qup74 TuM6PtOGgQJy6aarsddEIivtceEQGeTThhZ2DTsbEh1C4YdHlWCTfXMlqDiXAZiFNZJMS+3cL M/NmRjgXK0TnBTnxrG1ifSbyXPrsy/J6iy53H6Z6nI2vkwDZFmAuowUYPqMfZU/uFk2tlUx0+ ArrSLSfO9RQcuGGs+RVoZCHQ2Y4HN+UEcBxIl4etVhxvegQj3QWdkPzY5nft9NlwGw29XvCf1 0WtVDznOUqhYjD+15+2Cd9ha7D4n7Wu1ff1flgAf5KrR0JWDyWZpdSMqBvMZYrm9/uuwz1dlX vVwq02Xx3d+gHhfIvzWG/8icgx+waHwNzeiO9KZ6wKgH55kWcjd0V83Xg4zmeMmt5oVRVsyiG 4+sI7zD724leQ3kMLvP7Sp76ItLvGPGMhVzhyVx4fG0KGalE1nz+FSyHyxo8vbAS51RSmo6e/ TZ+/rTGqaezLDOZOWI0+JZ83hwTrxjNt1KpSfxIzbm6H+ldZehOl6pNT/tRwAOlEViZtQlx4T GuuueJsJqvwXf3N/no2mACAgQiOdjYDl3wLScw8Xo4KmPj+lgGXUsn2QWXE= Subject: Re: [Bloat] geoff huston's take on BBR X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 17:06:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --dPeeUwrAyLIBJBQKTGkWltoZwY1MQ1sGu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bZMsmWAyJwaiOIJsk88dzY3Q8vcX79ljw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthias Tafelmeier To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net, =?UTF-8?Q?Toke_H=c3=b8iland-J=c3=b8rgensen?= Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Bloat] geoff huston's take on BBR References: <87in6ohm30.fsf@toke.dk> <7adae673-d701-6fe0-1d47-524320d38583@gmx.net> <1b46d724-6568-c4ee-9860-86ae504434a3@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: <1b46d724-6568-c4ee-9860-86ae504434a3@kit.edu> --bZMsmWAyJwaiOIJsk88dzY3Q8vcX79ljw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------65B080A756832410AEA4E434" Content-Language: de-DE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------65B080A756832410AEA4E434 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------51689810E72EF3330BE8148F" --------------51689810E72EF3330BE8148F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Interesting. Potentially, all affectuated. After having applied the BB= R >> 2.0, we might are back to Cubic? :D > I don't understand what you're saying. I think Geoff tested BBR v1.0. > Explanations for the experienced behavior can be found in our paper > http://doc.tm.kit.edu/2017-kit-icnp-bbr-authors-copy.pdf, esp. section > 3. Geoff's findings in the wild nicely confirm our results that were > performed in more controlled lab settings. Important is though, that > you always test with multiple concurrent BBR flows... To put this straight - I meant that all the efferescing outlines as to BBR were potentially overly hasty, perceive it as a mere utterance. For BBR2.0 I referred to the slide by Geoff listing the cued improvements from 1.0 -> 2.0 - insinuating thereby ruling out thinkable 'vantage aspects' of BBR (excuse my cynicism - early morning ranting!). Good. Thanks for sharing your work. >> Moreover, if it tends to be unstable on larger scale - what is Google >> doing then? Thought they've got a more or less homogeneous BBR driven >> TCP flow ecosystem - at least internally!? Was all propaganda? When >> speculating, might working for them since of centrally handled flow >> steering approaches - "imposing inter-flow fairness". > There are certain situations where BBR might work well: > 1) you only have a single flow at the bottleneck, might be the case in > their B4 scenario > 2) The senders a application limited (e.g., YouTube) > 3) The bottleneck buffer is much larger than a BDP > (then BDP will limit the queue size between 1 and 1.5 BDP) > However, BBR has no explicit fairness mechanism, so sometimes > one will see quite unfair shares for longer periods, > even if there are only BBR flows present at then bottleneck. ACK --=20 Besten Gru=C3=9F Matthias Tafelmeier --------------51689810E72EF3330BE8148F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

Interesting. Potentially, all affectuated. After h=
aving applied the BBR
2.0, we might are back to Cubic? :D

I don't understand what you're saying. I think Geoff=
 tested BBR v1.0.
Explanations for the experienced behavior can be found in our paper
http://doc.tm.kit.ed=
u/2017-kit-icnp-bbr-authors-copy.pdf, esp. section
3. Geoff's findings in the wild nicely confirm our results that were
performed in more controlled lab settings. Important is though, that
you always test with multiple concurrent BBR flows...
To put this straight - I meant that all the efferescing outlines as to BBR were potentially overly hasty, perceive it as a mere utterance. For BBR2.0 I referred to the slide by Geoff listing the cued improvements from 1.0 -> 2.0 - insinuating thereby ruling out thinkable 'vantage aspects' of BBR (excuse my cynicism - early morning ranting!). Good. Thanks for sharing your work.

      

        
Moreover, if it tends to be unstable on larger sca=
le - what is Google
doing then? Thought they've got a more or less homogeneous BBR driven
TCP flow ecosystem - at least internally!? Was all propaganda? When
speculating, might working for them since of centrally handled flow
steering approaches - "imposing inter-flow fairness".


      

      
There are certain situations where BBR might work we=
ll:
1) you only have a single flow at the bottleneck, might be the case in
their B4 scenario
2) The senders a application limited (e.g., YouTube)
3) The bottleneck buffer is much larger than a BDP
   (then BDP will limit the queue size between 1 and 1.5 BDP)
However, BBR has no explicit fairness mechanism, so sometimes
one will see quite unfair shares for longer periods,
even if there are only BBR flows present at then bottleneck.

    

    
ACK

    

    
--=20
Besten Gru=C3=9F

Matthias Tafelmeier



  


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