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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e5bec27c587e12e97a118d40a3017c11; Sat, 01 Feb 2025 00:40:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 19:40:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <48F77C27-0E57-4F96-9BD8-238CC93342F8@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US From: David Collier-Brown In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.23187 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Subject: Re: [Bloat] Comcast & L4S X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2025 00:40:24 -0000 What Comcast/L4S is doing was once called, by a Polish colleague, "Peeing in the soup, so it smells more like me." --dave On 1/31/25 18:57, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: > Here are the positives: > > For the first time, a major ISP has deployed the PIE AQM on all > traffic. Before now Comcast was only doing that on the upstream. > That´s 99.99% of all current comcast traffic getting an AQM on it. WIN. > > The L4S side being enabled will also result in some applications > actually trying to use it for cloud gaming. There is a partnership > with valve, > meta, and apple, that implies that we will perhaps see some VR and AR > applications trying to use it. I look forward to a killer app. > > Negatives include explicit marking and potential DOS vectors as often > discussed. I do feel that in order to keep up with the jonesies, > we will have to add optional l4s marking to CAKE, which should > outperform pie (mark-head), I just wish I knew what the right > level was - at 100Mbit it seemed at 2ms was best. We also need to > remove classic RFC3168 style marking and drop instead when the L4S bit > is present - across the entire linux and BSD ecosystem. > > There was an abortive attempt last year to get dualpi, accecn, and > prague into mainstream linux, but it stumbled over GSO handing, and > has not been resubmitted. ACCECN seems to be making some progress. > This makes it really hard to fool with this stuff. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 5:27 AM Sebastian Moeller via Bloat > wrote: >> Hi Rich, >> >> >>> On 31. Jan 2025, at 14:20, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote: >>> >>> Google Alerts sent me this: https://www.webpronews.com/comcasts-latency-leap-a-game-changer-in-network-performance/ >>> >>> Key quote: "Compatibility and Ecosystem: For L4S to have a significant impact, it requires an ecosystem where both the network infrastructure and the end-user devices support the standard..." >>> >>> Can anyone spell "boil the ocean"? :-) >>> >>> Or am I missing someting? >> Well, the whole safety mechanisms in L4$ are laughably inadequate... this "design" essentially exposes a priority scheduler* without meaningful admission control to the open internet. This is so optimistically naive that it almost is funny again. I wish all the effort and hard work to make L4$ happen, would have been put in a reasonable design... but at least I learned one of the IETF's failure modes, and that is at least something valuable ;) >> >> >> *) Just because something is not a strict preempting priority scheduler does not make it a good idea to expose it blindly... a conditional priority scheduler with e.g. L4$' weight share of 10:1 already can do a lot of harm. >> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain