> > > > I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over > time, as to how much better the problem is getting? > > > We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If we get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully. > > > > And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? > > > I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the moment - is there something I can read? On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to routers. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer routers that allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and also run download/upload tests. > > > > I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the > fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan > enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. > > > T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, and all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointing folks who reach out to this thread ( https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cake-w-adaptive-bandwidth-historic/108848 ) about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, but ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to apply pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I think this is above their heads). On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht < dave.taht@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar < sina@ waveform. com ( > sina@waveform.com ) > wrote: > > > >> >> >> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We've >> been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing >> something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test >> than ever before, which has been fun! >> >> >> > > > > Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto > site for many now. > > > > > I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over > time, as to how much better the problem is getting? > > > > > And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? > > > > > ... > > > > > I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth > (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6 > product. A > keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with waveform results > on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless vendor demo'd > privately to me their flent results before/after cake on their next-gen > radios... and people dissed tarana without me prompting for their bad > bufferbloat... and the best thing of all that happened to me was... > besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her > schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth > (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked. > > > > "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?" > > > > > And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got > cake." > > > > > "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently. > > > > > They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a > bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet > card they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of > service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a > great, convincing pitch... > > > > > ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert > after. > > > > > ... > > > > > The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every > person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber > bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem > pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole > thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running > directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radios > to drive the plan enforcement better > (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about > the... physics. > > > > So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS > 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their > fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their > network improve that way also. > > > > I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the > fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan > enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. > > > > > I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of > this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?) > > > > > I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference? > > > >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < bloat@ lists. bufferbloat. >> net ( bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire < cheshire@ apple. com ( >>> cheshire@apple.com ) > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@ lists. >>>> bufferbloat. net ( make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get in >>>>> touch with the ifxit folk? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https:/ / www. youtube. com/ watch?v=UICh3ScfNWI ( >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UICh3ScfNWI ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I’m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it repeats >>>> all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard >>>> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the >>>> “solution” is letting certain traffic “jump the line, angering everyone >>>> behind them”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some quotes from the video: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line and >>>>> just check out, especially since you’re in a hurry, but they’re rudely >>>>> refusing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting >>> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker saw >>>>> you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of the >>>>> line or opens up an express lane just for you >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple >>> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory >>> itself. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the >>>> same failed solution that hasn’t worked for the last three decades. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses >>> gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and >>> then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing", >>> with a screenshot of the most common >>> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cake >>> *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt. >>> >>> >>> >>> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly >>> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take >>> the test, >>> there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, which is >>> more people than we've ever been able to reach in for example, a nanog >>> conference. >>> >>> >>> >>> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, >>> without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more >>> right now! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've tried >>> to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake" >>> are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for them, >>> It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla, >>> ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various >>> user forums. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing >>> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal >>>> person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in >>>> grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to >>>> bufferbloat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged >>>> then you get to “skip to the front of the line”. The solution to >>>> bufferbloat is that there is no line! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better >>> string of explanations, explaining >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all". >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With grocery stores and airports people’s arrivals are independent and not >>>> controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to generate >>>> backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form. >>>> The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to >>>> prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue >>>> and then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service >>>> than all the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like >>>> before. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the other >>> side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rather >>> than timely backpressure? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), >>> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important >>> things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most >>> for >>> fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in cake + >>> qosify. >>> >>> >>> >>> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would like >>> another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Stuart Cheshire >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https:/ >>> / www. linkedin. com/ posts/ dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>> ( >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>> ) Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@ lists. bufferbloat. net ( Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net ) >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>> >>> >> >> > > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https:/ > / www. linkedin. com/ posts/ dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz > ( > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz > ) Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >