From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.lang.hm (unknown [66.167.227.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21B093CB36 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 18:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dlang-laptop.LAN (dlang-laptop.LAN [10.2.0.162]) by mail.lang.hm (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB02D5F237; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 15:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 15:55:53 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lang X-X-Sender: dlang@dlang-laptop To: davecb@spamcop.net cc: David Lang , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.1 (DEB 209 2017-03-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] My (controversial) position paper on TCP X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 22:56:23 -0000 On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: > On 2019-03-20 4:29 p.m., David Lang wrote: > >> On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, David Collier-Brown wrote: >> >>> On 2019-03-20 10:28 a.m., Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >>>> >>>> This isn't a resource problem, it's a code problem. The IETF wants 10-15 >>>> year old hosts to be able to connect to a network and perform basic >>>> networking. It might not be very optimized, but the basic function should >>>> be there. New functionality can optimize for different factors, but >>>> making older host stop working is frowned upon. >>> >>> Fortunately this is a solved problem in capacity planning: you replace >>> machines often enough that they're not constantly out of service being >>> repaired. 10 to 15 human-years is the equivalent of 70 to 105 of the >>> dog-years we use in this silly business (;-)) >> >> I have quite a number of consumer devices from 2000 or earlier still >> running, consumer endpoints (aka IoT devices) do not get updated very much, >> if at all. >> >> David Lang > > Interesting thought: I wasn't expecting consumer devices from 14 years ago! > What do you have? I've got 4 Tivo's that have been in operation since 2000, they have add-on netork cards instead of the original dial-up. At the Scale conference earlier this month, I used a couple of dozen wndr3800 APs that were sold in 2010. They are actually still used extensively (I have updated software on them). I've seen a lot of people who still use the stock AP/router their ISP gave them when they signed up for service many years ago. Technology refreshes happen at (some) companies, many homes tend to run things untilthey break. Even at some companies, I've seen them running 7+ year old hardware in mission-critical production situations. David Lang > In our house, > > * the cable modem is about a year old, > * it's predecessor was about 5 when it died, > * the old printer was 3 years old > * the new one is about 4 > * my homemade PVR is about 6, and is starting to look elderly, and > * the old cable box was about 3, > * the new one about one > * and my netbook is older than the PVR by maybe a year or so (;-)) > > --dave > (I intentionally skipped IOT devices, as I expect they could change/pivot > hugely about the time the market starts to mature, > >