[Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[John D]

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I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
upload) bloat.
However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than
load sharing.
I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to
find a single device providing both.
Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b)
if so any suggestions which product/brand?
Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and cheaper.

My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need
Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.

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Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[Nils Andreas Svee]

Hi

The EdgeRouter line does have load balancing as well as SQM (htb + fq_codel),
so one of those should cover your needs.

Of note, CAKE is not built-in to the firmware if you care about it,
but support can be compiled 

With your current bandwidth, I'd guess an EdgeRouter Lite would to weak,
but the EdgeRouter X or more powerful would do the job well.

Keep in mind though, that as far as I can tell, the EdgeMax line is basically on life support,
and only receives some security fixes once in a blue moon.

Mikrotik's RouterOS devices supports load balancing / failover and SQM I believe,
so there might be an option for you there, but as I've never used them personally,
I can't comment beyond that.

Best Regards
Nils

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, at 10:48, John D via Bloat wrote:
> I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly upload) bloat. 
> However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than load sharing. 
> I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to find a single device providing both.
> Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b) if so any suggestions which product/brand?
> Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and cheaper.
> 
> My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> 

Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[John D]

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I might be missing the very obvious but I'm struggling to see which ER
models support multiple WAN when I look on their own website. Unless ALL
ports support WAN... if the ER-X can do this already then that was what I
was looking at on the router side anyway.

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 14:07 Nils Andreas Svee <me@lochnair.net> wrote:

> Hi
>
> The EdgeRouter line does have load balancing as well as SQM (htb +
> fq_codel),
> so one of those should cover your needs.
>
> Of note, CAKE is not built-in to the firmware if you care about it,
> but support can be compiled
>
> With your current bandwidth, I'd guess an EdgeRouter Lite would to weak,
> but the EdgeRouter X or more powerful would do the job well.
>
> Keep in mind though, that as far as I can tell, the EdgeMax line is
> basically on life support,
> and only receives some security fixes once in a blue moon.
>
> Mikrotik's RouterOS devices supports load balancing / failover and SQM I
> believe,
> so there might be an option for you there, but as I've never used them
> personally,
> I can't comment beyond that.
>
> Best Regards
> Nils
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, at 10:48, John D via Bloat wrote:
> > I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
> upload) bloat.
> > However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover
> than load sharing.
> > I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
> affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to
> find a single device providing both.
> > Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components
> b) if so any suggestions which product/brand?
> > Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and
> cheaper.
> >
> > My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't
> need Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >
>

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Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[Nils Andreas Svee]

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The wizards for quick setup makes some assumptions about which ports is WAN/LAN IIRC, but you're free to use the ports for whatever purpose you wish

So yes, all the models can be used with load balancing / failover

Best Regards
Nils

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, at 15:57, John D wrote:
> I might be missing the very obvious but I'm struggling to see which ER models support multiple WAN when I look on their own website. Unless ALL ports support WAN... if the ER-X can do this already then that was what I was looking at on the router side anyway.
> 
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 14:07 Nils Andreas Svee <me@lochnair.net> wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The EdgeRouter line does have load balancing as well as SQM (htb + fq_codel),
>> so one of those should cover your needs.
>> 
>> Of note, CAKE is not built-in to the firmware if you care about it,
>> but support can be compiled 
>> 
>> With your current bandwidth, I'd guess an EdgeRouter Lite would to weak,
>> but the EdgeRouter X or more powerful would do the job well.
>> 
>> Keep in mind though, that as far as I can tell, the EdgeMax line is basically on life support,
>> and only receives some security fixes once in a blue moon.
>> 
>> Mikrotik's RouterOS devices supports load balancing / failover and SQM I believe,
>> so there might be an option for you there, but as I've never used them personally,
>> I can't comment beyond that.
>> 
>> Best Regards
>> Nils
>> 
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, at 10:48, John D via Bloat wrote:
>> > I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly upload) bloat. 
>> > However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than load sharing. 
>> > I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to find a single device providing both.
>> > Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b) if so any suggestions which product/brand?
>> > Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and cheaper.
>> > 
>> > My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bloat mailing list
>> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>> >

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Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[David Lang]

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any router that you can run OpenWRT on will do the job
look at the mwan3 package to mange the multiple ISPs

at 100Mb, you don't need an especially beefy router.

David Lang

On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, John D 
via Bloat wrote:

> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 09:48:21 +0100
> From: John D via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: John D <j.w.r.dexter@gmail.com>
> To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?
> 
> I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
> upload) bloat.
> However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than
> load sharing.
> I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
> affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to
> find a single device providing both.
> Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b)
> if so any suggestions which product/brand?
> Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and cheaper.
>
> My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need
> Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
>

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_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[Luis A. Cornejo]

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I’ve done the multi wan with mwan3 and it works fine for load balance or
failover.

But if you are trying to improve your upload then the best you can get is
one upload vs the other. You won’t get both uploads to the same stream,
that is bonding, which is a little harder to do.

-Luis

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 9:35 AM David Lang via Bloat <
bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> any router that you can run OpenWRT on will do the job
> look at the mwan3 package to mange the multiple ISPs
>
> at 100Mb, you don't need an especially beefy router.
>
> David Lang
>
> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, John D
> via Bloat wrote:
>
> > Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 09:48:21 +0100
> > From: John D via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Reply-To: John D <j.w.r.dexter@gmail.com>
> > To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > Subject: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?
> >
> > I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
> > upload) bloat.
> > However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than
> > load sharing.
> > I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
> > affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to
> > find a single device providing both.
> > Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b)
> > if so any suggestions which product/brand?
> > Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and
> cheaper.
> >
> > My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need
> > Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
> >_______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[David Lang]

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you aren't going to bond two differnt ISPs for faster upload.

you may setup tunnels over each of the ISPs and bond them together.

Even with a full BGP link, any given connection is very unlikely to use both 
ISPs.

David Lang

On Mon, 5 Jun 2023, Luis A. Cornejo wrote:

> I’ve done the multi wan with mwan3 and it works fine for load balance or
> failover.
>
> But if you are trying to improve your upload then the best you can get is
> one upload vs the other. You won’t get both uploads to the same stream,
> that is bonding, which is a little harder to do.
>
> -Luis
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 9:35 AM David Lang via Bloat <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> any router that you can run OpenWRT on will do the job
>> look at the mwan3 package to mange the multiple ISPs
>>
>> at 100Mb, you don't need an especially beefy router.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, John D
>> via Bloat wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 09:48:21 +0100
>>> From: John D via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Reply-To: John D <j.w.r.dexter@gmail.com>
>>> To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> Subject: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?
>>>
>>> I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
>>> upload) bloat.
>>> However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than
>>> load sharing.
>>> I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
>>> affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to
>>> find a single device providing both.
>>> Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b)
>>> if so any suggestions which product/brand?
>>> Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and
>> cheaper.
>>>
>>> My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need
>>> Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>

Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[Dave Taht]

we invented "source specific routing", for ipv6, (now called SADR)
during the cerowrt project and it has been part of openwrt ever since.
Two or more ipv6 upstreams will distribute their /subnet to the
downstream. Regrettably, few protocols or end user applications
attempt to leverage these disparate address spaces, although multipath
tcp and quic have become more common.

On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 10:20 AM David Lang via Bloat
<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> you aren't going to bond two differnt ISPs for faster upload.
>
> you may setup tunnels over each of the ISPs and bond them together.
>
> Even with a full BGP link, any given connection is very unlikely to use both
> ISPs.
>
> David Lang
>
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2023, Luis A. Cornejo wrote:
>
> > I’ve done the multi wan with mwan3 and it works fine for load balance or
> > failover.
> >
> > But if you are trying to improve your upload then the best you can get is
> > one upload vs the other. You won’t get both uploads to the same stream,
> > that is bonding, which is a little harder to do.
> >
> > -Luis
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 9:35 AM David Lang via Bloat <
> > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >> any router that you can run OpenWRT on will do the job
> >> look at the mwan3 package to mange the multiple ISPs
> >>
> >> at 100Mb, you don't need an especially beefy router.
> >>
> >> David Lang
> >>
> >> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, John D
> >> via Bloat wrote:
> >>
> >>> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 09:48:21 +0100
> >>> From: John D via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >>> Reply-To: John D <j.w.r.dexter@gmail.com>
> >>> To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>> Subject: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?
> >>>
> >>> I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
> >>> upload) bloat.
> >>> However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover than
> >>> load sharing.
> >>> I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
> >>> affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling to
> >>> find a single device providing both.
> >>> Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components b)
> >>> if so any suggestions which product/brand?
> >>> Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and
> >> cheaper.
> >>>
> >>> My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't need
> >>> Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



-- 
Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[John D]

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My scenario is upgrading from DSL (35/8mbps) to StarLink (150/15mbps) so I
really only need a failover - keep the DSL as it's cheap.

My question though is how quickly will failover occur? I work over RDP &
Teams all day and I'm unclear if failover should give me near seamless
service, or kicks in after things already stopped working.

(Ps: I'm unsure of etiquette on this list, should I reply all or reply back
to the list only every time)

On Mon, Jun 5, 2023, 17:06 Luis A. Cornejo <luis.a.cornejo@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’ve done the multi wan with mwan3 and it works fine for load balance or
> failover.
>
> But if you are trying to improve your upload then the best you can get is
> one upload vs the other. You won’t get both uploads to the same stream,
> that is bonding, which is a little harder to do.
>
> -Luis
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 9:35 AM David Lang via Bloat <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> any router that you can run OpenWRT on will do the job
>> look at the mwan3 package to mange the multiple ISPs
>>
>> at 100Mb, you don't need an especially beefy router.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, John D
>> via Bloat wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 09:48:21 +0100
>> > From: John D via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> > Reply-To: John D <j.w.r.dexter@gmail.com>
>> > To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > Subject: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?
>> >
>> > I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
>> > upload) bloat.
>> > However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover
>> than
>> > load sharing.
>> > I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
>> > affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling
>> to
>> > find a single device providing both.
>> > Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components
>> b)
>> > if so any suggestions which product/brand?
>> > Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and
>> cheaper.
>> >
>> > My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't
>> need
>> > Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
>> >_______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>

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Re: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?

[David Lang]

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On Mon, 5 Jun 2023, John D wrote:

> My scenario is upgrading from DSL (35/8mbps) to StarLink (150/15mbps) so I
> really only need a failover - keep the DSL as it's cheap.
>
> My question though is how quickly will failover occur? I work over RDP &
> Teams all day and I'm unclear if failover should give me near seamless
> service, or kicks in after things already stopped working.

it's not seamless, for two reasons.

1. it takes time to detect that the connectivity is down

if it's the local wire breaking, your router can detect the loss of the link, 
but if it's a problem further up in the ISP, you can only detect it by sending a 
ping and having it not respond. It's common to send such pings every minute or 
so, which limits how quickly you can detect a failure. It's also common to wait 
for a couple failures so that you don't fail over due to a single dropped 
packet. (as noted below, failovers are not going to be transparent, so a short 
outage is preferrable to a false failover)

2. zoom/teams/RDP/etc will need to see their connection fail and reconnect.

Since you have two ISPs and don't have BGP across them, you have a different IP 
address on each ISP, so when you shift from one to the other, existing 
connections have to fail and when they are re-established, they show up to the 
other end as the new IP.

It's not something that you want to have happen during a meeting, and it won't 
cover for the few-second outages that Starlink sometimes has, but it does cover 
longer outages.


now, you can set things up so that you have a VPN over each of the connections 
to a VM you run on a hosted service somewhere and failover from one VPN leg to 
the other and the remote end will not realize this due to the NAT being done on 
your remote VM. But that's a lot more work to setup and has it's own set of 
'interesting' problems.

David Lang
P.S. reply-to-all is common.


> (Ps: I'm unsure of etiquette on this list, should I reply all or reply back
> to the list only every time)
>
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2023, 17:06 Luis A. Cornejo <luis.a.cornejo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I’ve done the multi wan with mwan3 and it works fine for load balance or
>> failover.
>>
>> But if you are trying to improve your upload then the best you can get is
>> one upload vs the other. You won’t get both uploads to the same stream,
>> that is bonding, which is a little harder to do.
>>
>> -Luis
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 9:35 AM David Lang via Bloat <
>> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> any router that you can run OpenWRT on will do the job
>>> look at the mwan3 package to mange the multiple ISPs
>>>
>>> at 100Mb, you don't need an especially beefy router.
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, John D
>>> via Bloat wrote:
>>>
>>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 09:48:21 +0100
>>>> From: John D via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Reply-To: John D <j.w.r.dexter@gmail.com>
>>>> To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> Subject: [Bloat] Dual WAN home router with decent SQM?
>>>>
>>>> I want to set up a new home router with SQM support to alleviate (mostly
>>>> upload) bloat.
>>>> However I would also like dual ISP support, more for backup/failover
>>> than
>>>> load sharing.
>>>> I can see affordable multi wan "load balancer" routers eg TP-link, and
>>>> affordable SQM routers such as ubiquity Edgerouter, but I'm struggling
>>> to
>>>> find a single device providing both.
>>>> Just after any advice on a) am I better having two separate components
>>> b)
>>>> if so any suggestions which product/brand?
>>>> Two devices means more configuration but possibly more flexible and
>>> cheaper.
>>>>
>>>> My internet speed is looking to max out around 100/20mbps so I don't
>>> need
>>>> Gbit performance. Thanks for any help.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>>
>>
>