From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 709683B29E for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 12:17:09 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1736529426; x=1737134226; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=w6QqpkKUYSBcxJDmv4FqCc4MlXOPGNLPpu4Zwtji9cA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=PR0RYZnSMcAK38GpaPIdW9eWZWbkaitz91LRZMDtoiJHUpY5RoParoFcAJ/ZODH7 TEBnqTRNvPV+l0MoF0yv/cCJ1TEd7bXJGc5fWpV5CiSvQfHoFzER7ZjsUbtOUlo5S Eebae9cdeYdlBgZUGeC3gs/8vzHjeScTQYQf40ZjPUJxWZGg2KsPdmrLo43Tyqx+y WeqBH4K/HmjBNaOHmMuV6OED30tR/RVMD32oh6neS3r1fdDYh31kGiaC3vNb0qeIt mNmp0ro7dPK7Ta9RKJJfqPsXxEB+9ed8EkiM49MNWt1u89gmIIMoq5EaPSg+yxcLy C2V6C085xNLE2oglng== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([77.8.251.184]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MwQXH-1tFalD1BAr-011Jbx; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 18:17:06 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 18:17:02 +0100 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Dave Taht CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Toke_H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Toke_H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= , cake@lists.bufferbloat.net User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20250110155531.300303-1-toke@redhat.com> <2FE6B2E2-9A34-47C1-B203-F0C424F00704@gmx.de> Message-ID: <045726EE-7219-4E62-B9B3-47A75456D6BE@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:swc7LQ9mn6xfsFEC0FrqlPe9mpX5QBh7Tn468S4rZ3gWRncJ9jL fLP2LfxYfB8T7GX24/8cMxprQvXo5lNlHd2RcuqOsj0oc4NEKNaAU3uB/YagQAFi/RovKCr EnvcKtAYLZi8hOeXhFTtgR+2iH2xUYj5fSx2JZe/PTa6IdrVq1pQza4552W90Rcjn32rBNJ gXKMeTtJJvc0xItFrV0iw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:K9yO7fdzEyo=;9EeRKxsipzghJWkA7CvaOlPrVz8 KF5Zn3QViI0qJEdZDQph5DaU9i+2d7m0+wKK3F+kNKI/MhWmWQth8GYyFFcljBckzUz58chg9 CzoyUXtNTsdR6DUvuF7UFvvUVNtKjM/CyFvYojgw0ahWe1DBVJHoym0O0Jy0KAFRPOCejwE2S l4Op0EeSjoikc/mhqJXSvBn/ks55YxBXjzP5tyzX66gY7e4ZwyJgq1rTCe4k+pz/2eLb5eI6U dVSAuvQXCYIJ7WCfmIoNBRIKEEx0ipecmzvbx/aKLp/W6yh594lCWPGrRfyLx2usCz0CJaonM oZmunFGVeJZxIZWt+BYgLIBAkDB2kOFJJuEMiHx396+9lPw4bPPGMcs9hUtqTvgD7+Wdl0Vsf wZNRYBuM+y2LA71KffDevON84LCf2hcyGtUh86zQPrZ1b9MtNWpAntiuhWqG8qeZvKPXc6FUz VntM8uK71jK1oZ2lYbKveW0Pjz2OonHNaOejaaZJ+XYGH9BoCh+UADVtpuA6Kb9K5wyVOxDnT uZoHu5+CCBIQ6JPjfikqu0q55Xmb0GmmuPo++t4hdd2cruJs+3Mr1bfMhDKEZabAxIjCL8OeD l76TAUt/T1/lQ8/o4fxfJwUpcCZXFDkpXyjxUG13I5WjuiPZxVO5UXnR0/k0v5z0by4RpmOAQ PsJd23jmgVRCMkbbogozPd3S3ghLdPQFK5TyVKak4VTXojIny1ASad77Bf1NCULpE8ua+8Uij KCVALeI1QNgePgq3ZnyuXJ7gYg+xfeZKK/5em43IywZmmPAp5aXd2Nt0Rz8p5Wc/4kDxraUDD G98S2jt4MhKjp3paYfVG4o1d3KU6oLrMWNt6AZTUccuCnWWJxls+JkbCknNg5vzh7bMH4d7lz SBXHynEvRCHcEWpS6Qi0MFOVs5exxhyJi3ZhBLuaOlRpL07nwMBbfmcEVibSH4COja41o0Xe9 N2LCYtoPf9c9dY1LSwlyc+DSR29M8lCKEaxm/p0L6aXqY/xocyMMA2rcwa3Gzen6cqzsgHlTY X6vVPbySv25v8iXrUeHxAeNqpYzT7t2H7Gmdv6qDK1qPjwwyawo6i4i6h9z4Fch2/IF2aWWBh /KjjOK/6LJQmXRCyfvE+4fwRuJvXe+ Subject: Re: [Cake] [PATCH net-next] sched: sch_cake: Align QoS treatment to Windows and Zoom X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 17:17:09 -0000 On 10 January 2025 18:07:46 CET, Dave Taht wrote= : >On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 9:02=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10 January 2025 17:34:45 CET, Dave Taht wr= ote: >> >actually in re-reading that, I think it leaves nqb in 0 (44, not 45, >> >is now VI), which wasn't my intent=2E >> > >> >More below=2E=2E=2E >> > >> >On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 8:24=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> >> >> >> Mmmh=2E off the Linux lists/folks for discussion: >> >> >> >> can I propose to drop NQB down to BestEffort? The supposed requireme= nts for NQB marking should make these flows thrive in a flow isolating sche= duler like cake without any special treatment=2E=2E=2E moving it to Video o= r worse Voice really only invites abuse=2E=2E=2E >> > >> >I would prefer consistent behavior=2E >> >> Without proper policing, NQB in Voice, with all/most other traffic in B= estEffort a single NQB flow can easily hog up to 50% (I believe this is the= cake default) of capacity=2E=2E=2E >> first rule of priority schedulers think twice before exposing a priorit= y scheduler without admission control to the wider internet=2E=2E=2E > >I do not think NQB belongs in Voice (which shares priority with >netcontrol, etc)=2E I also do not think it belongs in best effort as the >intent is to get a quick response to a short flow=2E yes, FQ solves a >lot of problems, but > >At some point you have to trust the intent=2E=2E I do not trust NQB, I consider that to be evidence of how far the IETF has= lowered its standards to ratify that junk=2E Another example of engineering by wishful thinking and motivated reasoning= =2E > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 10=2E Jan 2025, at 16:55, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen via = Cake wrote: >> >> > >> >> > From: Dave Taht >> >> > >> >> > Cake's diffserv4 mode attempted to follow the IETF webrtc >> >> > QoS marking standards, RFC8837=2E >> >> > >> >> > It turns out Windows QoS can only use CS0, CS1, CS5, and CS7=2E >> >> >> >> Nah, applications apparently can only request a small set of DSCPs, = but it is possible to make whole applications use a different DSCP: >> >> example for making putty use EF >> >> >> >> New-NetQosPolicy -Name "putty" -AppPathNameMatchCondition "putty=2Ee= xe" -PolicyStore ActiveStore -NetworkProfile All -DSCPAction 46 >> > >> >Within an App=2E=2E=2E >> >> Yepp, that solves zoom's issue, as I am willing to bet default all CS0 = zoom does not have fluidity issues due to congesting itself=2E=2E=2E >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Zoom defaults to using CS5 for video and screen sharing traffic=2E >> >> >> >> Zoom defaults to using CS0 (my packet captures) unless an adminstrat= or enables DSCPs, which I assume will only/mostly happen for business accou= nts=2E >> > >> >I have seen it enabled=2E >> >> Sure, on business accounts that do come with an administrator access to= the businesses zoom account=2E=2E=2E typical home users are CS0 all the wa= y, all the time=2E >> >> > I have also multiple reports of "stuttering", >> >which I am hoping this resolves=2E >> > >> >> >> >> > Bump CS4, CS5, and NQB to the video tin (2) in diffserv4 mode, for >> >> > more bandwidth and lower priority=2E >> >> >> >> I do endorse that, but that change will affect all current users of = cake as parts of their individual QoS hierarchies=2E >> > >> >I think windows users are not as clued=2E >> >> They are also not that likely to use cake in the first place=2E=2E=2E s= o for the convenience on users we do not have we risk annoying experienced = users=2E I am not saying this should stop us but we should consider that, a= fter all this can not easily be overridden via the commandline=2E >> >> >> > >> >> > This also better aligns with how WiFi presently treats CS5 and NQB= =2E >> >> >> >> Two issues: it is not that default WiFi uses a sane system to begin = with, and NQB IMHO should not be elevated in priority unless it is also pol= iced well, something neither WiFi nor cake will do out of the box=2E >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Signed-off-by: Dave Taht >> >> > Signed-off-by: Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen >> >> > --- >> >> > net/sched/sch_cake=2Ec | 4 ++-- >> >> > 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) >> >> > >> >> > diff --git a/net/sched/sch_cake=2Ec b/net/sched/sch_cake=2Ec >> >> > index 48dd8c88903f=2E=2E2a9288d4b873 100644 >> >> > --- a/net/sched/sch_cake=2Ec >> >> > +++ b/net/sched/sch_cake=2Ec >> >> > @@ -328,8 +328,8 @@ static const u8 diffserv4[] =3D { >> >> > 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, >> >> > 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, >> >> > 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, >> >> > - 3, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, >> >> > - 3, 0, 0, 0, 3, 0, 3, 0, >> >> > + 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, >> >> > + 2, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0, 3, 0, >> >> > 3, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, >> >> > 3, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, >> >> > }; >> >> > -- >> >> > 2=2E47=2E1 >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Cake mailing list >> >> > Cake@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> >> > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/cake >> >> >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity= =2E > > > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E