From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2ABE3B29D for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 04:59:34 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1639475973; bh=djsATxujh+9fsYHVzpqGXcFm35+mn55szfn6H32NmhA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=TmMjkZ8a2nRcfRoXVo/Sx4iGNjW3NaL2OZqfUttpr6KJj8PauPixrmdZMwi2/hGZL l8K6RqpnweOR+FmP3rT4/O+wZTn00YB3LHrD0raJSxRlp6MZxkJ/6YgYRu9PzXAOg9 5B463F6nfLjq425IzIiaRusw/JtaXgynVt/6Qp2s= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpDJd-1mAVyd3u3z-00qgSa; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 10:59:32 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <89ECAB12-74A3-40B6-8C0F-D1AA22E40C71@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 10:59:32 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Cake List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <077B33B9-C1A6-4469-9614-F760A357BD1C@gmx.de> References: <18098E06-CB62-4967-B604-268063392C35@gmail.com> <89ECAB12-74A3-40B6-8C0F-D1AA22E40C71@gmail.com> To: Jonathan Morton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nzsJH3W546WXeI0pUYydG6rlD6THBInqLIgh0MQfWja8x3a5ndl vjRuVL5cIsEc4093F7xdi5TR6Gixj58KeOYzkSJBCL4giRU1bHClr8AW2IdXpQxUgY0XTEF 39c9knPPNUAxzz+IAxOQA/ZMdBXSlV9CgkUOGBgnovFtFceqoqdTKYI04fEzldzBqZur6Px S5ivG5rW+1pqLV4BqiW5w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:xmmGedHXwcY=:4WVK8gk0HbFpZBhYzL6PF6 VmxGXqV9PRw8QgvN3gCHRl7uhmxVeET2wy7HxRxpgEE9a+X6J8jMKtgpuUUBuPDR9boqQ4MPG F7LgWpe1TdErZvie5LD7OCH2HluGKJUg/qaMKkWO2Ycr5EY9dD+IpnlvWEbsf527k5m/Iw+Po YIuxSFwEAB7pSxJt9/l3iNN9e6FMh15cL+1/XnvPsK/GY33AQHWs6vjBolUhIl6IBt7yhwXuh +kP/E2YCshoxRCqFwhxlCezUs018XRtxWHrxEk79aKB29xIanmRnFfzRyl9a1h3v9UNgMUHvN aZuWHyXI4mKl4YvFrd5ft3kdEHkzytynDR/lG7Vc3FqhdzUTfp4X7NqqZho5B4/MF1RwmT7rY w2weSSjOJLaCthJMwu0Qf2hOlRZifeoR/v48bKGu8s3zEDAenn8MT8Sd6f2VlIEPUJ1qEB+S5 qXYHnYX8cLOOC4SH3gzxX8W0TnwYptLh/Tc96/VuB+IX7VuiirjWW4+TlrHk8g1yBxKqj/k9u gsvYqCYMVF7klfSddd5o5aexV/MnhysDbJ+R6fj8BVvwvzeI7fC9dhir3AdW46ta/nrT80WEz yWueMu/NtBbhYwvXm5MuRZyGeawKjEL2at/UsKBhSddyJ7PUeRFqjds6bo/Va+UQATt28J12N gQTs95xZ0+w5TPYgXwMbb7GY3swIQl1BQLNtSoq5Y4us3Z2BWMLicCKGS2K7Nk0wnSZ8lKQRf aEog3C2B/ckTi8oHwzrgjtlJuxbo57th2kqSQLUnqSlnHBb9b3KxxdQmxzx9UydxRWh4MtkGN M9JAlzw82Ws4pCf6/59b9eek5fX8eUbTIa9eYXfz3fzJ58KYWbZ7ColrqYN9+HoBNs2c8wI/s U5PRDiR9uFt7aSTwxhCzsI8pPWaH5ZmNz4lLS/uZU6wafXoOY9whfQcjeKINZ6oZdIII+B0r3 k961pBw/9bg7AjfvouftRxRUGpVExdWUkj1QtEkKJm2Xj1TCiCxfFojDcfICxDSz3FhzpDLhm /9eG94joQY6yfIRQ11Ci5N+cUaNbAXC7/CLVBo32iWEy+QvL0aW1nPLOlF4za0kDmjzHMnl5q AVAx/2hn+1bIdI= Subject: Re: [Cake] sometimes I worry about cobalt's effectiveness X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:59:35 -0000 Hi Jonathan > On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:57, Jonathan Morton = wrote: >=20 >> On 14 Dec, 2021, at 8:06 am, Dave Taht wrote: >>=20 >> ok, it looks like ecn and perhaps dscp is busted on this mikrotik >> release. Ton more plots, false starts, and packet captures here. >>=20 >> https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D897892#p897892 >>=20 >> Also well, codel is doing better than cobalt, and SFQ at least at >> these RTTs is doing really, really well. >=20 > Codel *with ECN disabled* is doing better under these conditions, = based on what I can see via the Google Drive links. This makes some = sense if the ECN CE marks are being silently erased (which is *very* bad = behaviour), rather than the packets carrying them being treated as = dropped (as I'd expect from a wrong checksum). >=20 > Under this particular pathology, COBALT is still able to act via the = BLUE algorithm, but in Cake this kicks in only when the queue first = reads as full. In other implementations of COBALT, it also triggers = when the sojourn time reaches 400ms (by default). >=20 > Mikrotik - or whoever is responsible for this - needs to fix their = crap so that the ECN field is processed correctly. End of discussion. Could we maybe introduce a no-ecn keyword to switch cake to drop only = mode? If only to help diagnose ECN issues? Regards Sebastian >=20 > - Jonathan Morton > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake