From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp104.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp104.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA5003B2A4 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app6.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp38.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5D3882905; Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app6.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D13CE1E62; Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:20:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:20:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "Cake List" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20230729182008000000_81478" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: X-Client-IP: 209.6.168.128 Message-ID: <1690669208.244711590@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/19.0.24-RC X-Classification-ID: c1855160-eae5-4f82-9719-e2399dc4462a-1-1 Subject: Re: [Cake] cakemq X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 22:20:08 -0000 ------=_20230729182008000000_81478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AHere's me wearing my business executive/business consulting hat:=0A =0AI= f you want a market that fits Cake very well, SME corporate routers and bui= lding-scale routers are perfect. Whereever there's a bottleneck behind whic= h you have many PCs and consumer devices, etc. Cake can do the job. (That's= better than the bulk of the low end home routers, which still are installe= d in apartments with one family as the only traffic source, so just buying = a faster link typically manages the bottleneck OK today).=0A =0ALet's say y= ou are a startup in the Bay Area - you get a Comcast Business service conne= ction, and then start hiring people with laptops. And maybe you have some "= lights out" server capacity at some colo you pay for, but you don't buy the= highest speed service for your server traffic to get to your developers' m= achines (either in the office or remote).=0A=0ASeems to me that Cake is the= answer, and that answer will run in mini-PCs (heftier CPUs than today's ho= me routers) that have 2 NICs, each that are GigE or 2.5 GigE or 40 GigE, de= pending on your bottleneck bandwidth of the service you can buy from Comcas= t Business or your colo facility.=0A =0ACake will "just solve" the problem = of congestion at that bottleneck, by pushing back traffic rates fairly to t= he endpoints on a flow by flow basis.=0A =0ANow lots of small businesses ru= n something like pFSense at that bottleneck point on that hardware.=0AOther= s seem to even run something more complex like Proxmox (because it costs ne= xt to nothing) with one of the VMs being the "router".=0A =0AI'm sure there= are lots of small IT support shops that install and maintain these applian= ces out there. I don't know any personally, but it's crazy for a small busi= ness to have a full time employee maintain that interconnect.=0A =0ASo, giv= en that Cake would make them more money, they must be convincable to share = some of that with Cake developers. Because they have deep pockets, Comcast = Business (which is a VERY different business from Comcast residential Inter= net) would be the first place I'd look. Presumably they dela with Value Add= ed Resellers who specialize in provisioning small and medium businesses.=0A= =0A(I once had a nice conversation with Jason Livingood about how Comcast = Business is independent and should be thought of as having very different t= ech needs. He might be able to tell you who at Comcast Business might be a = good contact. The same with all the other business Internet access provider= s out there.)=0A =0AOn Saturday, July 29, 2023 4:49pm, "Dave Taht via Cake"= said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> thank you sebastian and da= ve for your comments and feedback so far. I=0A> would like to find other ma= rkets for cake, more statistics worth=0A> collecting, and other ideas, in t= he hope that we could find something=0A> fundable out of the mix.=0A> =0A> = On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht wro= te:=0A> >=0A> > I don't know if it is possible to multithread cake or not. = But I=0A> > started writing the ideas up here:=0A> >=0A> >=0A> https://docs= .google.com/document/d/1tTYBPeaRdCO9AGTGQCpoiuLORQzN_bG3TAkEolJPh28/edit?us= p=3Dsharing=0A> >=0A> > Pretty fragmentary, other use cases, other features= , other=0A> > mis-features, and thoughts requested.=0A> >=0A> > --=0A> > Po= dcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg=0A> > Dave T=C3=A4ht C= SO, LibreQos=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> --=0A> Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/wat= ch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg=0A> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos=0A> ___________________= ____________________________=0A> Cake mailing list=0A> Cake@lists.bufferblo= at.net=0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake=0A> ------=_20230729182008000000_81478 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here's me wearing my b= usiness executive/business consulting hat:

=0A

 = ;

=0A

If you want a market that fits Cake very well,= SME corporate routers and building-scale routers are perfect. Whereever th= ere's a bottleneck behind which you have many PCs and consumer devices, etc= . Cake can do the job. (That's better than the bulk of the low end home rou= ters, which still are installed in apartments with one family as the only t= raffic source, so just buying a faster link typically manages the bottlenec= k OK today).

=0A

 

=0A

L= et's say you are a startup in the Bay Area - you get a Comcast Business ser= vice connection, and then start hiring people with laptops. And maybe you h= ave some "lights out" server capacity at some colo you pay for, but you don= 't buy the highest speed service for your server traffic to get to your dev= elopers' machines (either in the office or remote).

Seems to me = that Cake is the answer, and that answer will run in mini-PCs (heftier CPUs= than today's home routers) that have 2 NICs, each that are GigE or 2.5 Gig= E or 40 GigE, depending on your bottleneck bandwidth of the service you can= buy from Comcast Business or your colo facility.

=0A

Cake will "just solve" the problem of c= ongestion at that bottleneck, by pushing back traffic rates fairly to the e= ndpoints on a flow by flow basis.

=0A

 

=0A<= p style=3D"margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt; overflow= -wrap: break-word;">Now lots of small businesses run something like pFSense= at that bottleneck point on that hardware.

=0A

Othe= rs seem to even run something more complex like Proxmox (because it costs n= ext to nothing) with one of the VMs being the "router".

=0A

 

=0A

I'm sure there are lots of small = IT support shops that install and maintain these appliances out there. I do= n't know any personally, but it's crazy for a small business to have a full= time employee maintain that interconnect.

=0A

 = ;

=0A

So, given that Cake would make them more money= , they must be convincable to share some of that with Cake developers. Beca= use they have deep pockets, Comcast Business (which is a VERY different bus= iness from Comcast residential Internet) would be the first place I'd look.= Presumably they dela with Value Added Resellers who specialize in provisio= ning small and medium businesses.

=0A

 

=0A<= p style=3D"margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt; overflow= -wrap: break-word;">(I once had a nice conversation with Jason Livingood ab= out how Comcast Business is independent and should be thought of as having = very different tech needs. He might be able to tell you who at Comcast Busi= ness might be a good contact. The same with all the other business Internet= access providers out there.)

=0A

 

=0A

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 4:49pm, "Dave Taht via Cake" <= ;cake@lists.bufferbloat.net> said:

=0A
=0A

> thank you sebastian and dave for= your comments and feedback so far. I
> would like to find other ma= rkets for cake, more statistics worth
> collecting, and other ideas= , in the hope that we could find something
> fundable out of the mi= x.
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht &= lt;dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't kno= w if it is possible to multithread cake or not. But I
> > starte= d writing the ideas up here:
> >
> >
> https:= //docs.google.com/document/d/1tTYBPeaRdCO9AGTGQCpoiuLORQzN_bG3TAkEolJPh28/e= dit?usp=3Dsharing
> >
> > Pretty fragmentary, other u= se cases, other features, other
> > mis-features, and thoughts r= equested.
> >
> > --
> > Podcast: https://= www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg
> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, Li= breQos
>
>
>
> --
> Podcast: htt= ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, Li= breQos
> _______________________________________________
> = Cake mailing list
> Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://li= sts.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake
>

=0A
 ------=_20230729182008000000_81478--