From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22EE03B29E; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 15:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id h6so1827404lfc.2; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:31:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Qzjg1Jr+AWvHzcXsx8gdlzjlUqFZQ8qD9/c+eWWvs3k=; b=NlYfbRAo3cG/55xYrO2ougP85170YqQzG9V9xFBEsIDHjVGuc3/qcTX7oSe6k89biB CM9o1hb1XqqBo6U/KRqzaom1HwLNXOEZVeygZ1EO+Kc2qJWjosIX+qwbsbte0DJWp1NN F8lm+j+u4fKnGPvjxTDUEf3au0qj2JOi9WslTlgnMQ1qmLKeEcNcmSFf15e8zIugVsLA P4OGMH2/011aON/EthptC+TZXb9h4chdkwIdLArNG+qYvZMMPAujnJXj0W1/XijKQzEo paao5Tp/oi0/uwiEvgC4q4tt1EZH4N9mrVD5Oz1bMHuLhmCn2ieM9Yc31TJcZoBEGR76 3hRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Qzjg1Jr+AWvHzcXsx8gdlzjlUqFZQ8qD9/c+eWWvs3k=; b=YYlHIlBAR/lb/N4Z+dtxg87L8UqlRAmdaLxA1q3lsZD5ve6PriukJsT2VKHPuBTRu3 4bg5XFnEkCPig1SRhsHpuhPbw4J4YZkqPQimuzSeqriFd+XOPqppZ5p1SvKAR1ti+MYp DJDBRkddgdfWBq+3pkU4VbQr+qFl9aSZD+pGx8bY4j56RQo6YT3nU9cqscFb1xhMxwY4 oRPSXV7RCGlMw0A9UoVJH39IWcg3GoNXDI3tj4Y9ZIceEIz4qcM/W7Mt8z5+TwPW7kcg SOGqnEh7ppjdBsaUxEsZvrVmA4nU748XrKSMIJfQay+Gr9EbQpA6qwszDFeedpf/Mq4p Swfw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWAEIdKQU2hzcodLdHy4YxE04/RTzDJAdpemmBfd4xEUVysvspx k8ph555XdSNYMiQ8cXht20c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzqIQTj0KjnfIFJGMGn0otOgeLYyl0ho9kb50XX0XmDHI/XhpFEehIeHe0Bud/utMweNRFh6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a19:a211:: with SMTP id l17mr15151083lfe.144.1552246272931; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-235-245-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.235.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m21sm650071ljc.11.2019.03.10.12.31.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: <550C0248-1704-49DA-ABDC-49A91E0AC6F3@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 21:30:30 +0200 Cc: Dave Taht , bloat , Cake List , "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1EE25778-8571-4506-A334-38C544470ACE@gmail.com> References: <550C0248-1704-49DA-ABDC-49A91E0AC6F3@akamai.com> To: "Holland, Jake" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Cake] [Bloat] The "Some Congestion Experienced" ECN codepoint - a new internet draft - X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 19:31:14 -0000 > On 10 Mar, 2019, at 9:08 pm, Holland, Jake = wrote: >=20 > It's easy to accidently read section 5 as underspecified concrete > proposals instead of rough sketches for future direction that might > be worth investigating. This is something I noticed as well, and have edited to match the = intended tone of the document (which is to leave specific implementation = details to other documents, and to focus on the information conveyed). > New SCE-aware receivers and transport protocols must continue to I had already changed this to SHOULD, among other edits. > "Some" in "Some Congestion Experienced" is maybe misleading, and > arguably has the same meaning as "Congestion Experienced". >=20 > I was thinking maybe "Pre-Congestion Experienced" or "Queue > Utilization Observed", or if you want to preserve "SCE" and the > link to CE (which I do agree is nice), maybe "Slight" or "Sub" > instead of "Some", just to try to make it more obvious it's > flagging a lesser situation than "there is some congestion". An interesting idea, but SCE marks will appear even when there's a lot = of congestion (at high rates, ie. probably every packet that doesn't = carry CE), as well as showing up at low frequency when the level of = congestion only warrants reducing the growth rate. I think the word = "Some" is sufficiently descriptive, while "Slight" might cause people to = ignore it completely. I think other points are less urgent to address in the first submission. - Jonathan Morton