From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com (mail-wr0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B3713B29E for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2018 16:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id d2-v6so894576wrm.10 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:14:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heistp.net; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=Y3tzOUff2+Gy/mO80+c+hm5ZywPklnBHtfwcMPloL4M=; b=Z+qxJvHFbifinOTrxd2aHM7rwxz1S7NDvCNCzwIDQa7glUyiPxmUwQB9YYQL5rOWGk UWqwM5cMFLyeZoj1kQ5AEmewuj+b7KAC8XWa6ziQ2wXkw2KviDqqZrFdCkIFa+08NsxS PH5fKtk17RpLdhU21z0+LPc8iE/xoV4mmYqrY1dOyvdc9S1D+EoeZjEhCFm2iRmAYdlp /QNoS5wNjVFDv9Wim2acK+NG5kmvGaKuHow6TrkTvFIFOunUZhPmG/4r0zzj9HFwzKyU HCnzzeZOR9k5zhFqfFctHvV8YbQzRMv6I2QYTHwNjk93ZWd/nY7KrJ0vSDAQ4ZDH/WqL LULg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=Y3tzOUff2+Gy/mO80+c+hm5ZywPklnBHtfwcMPloL4M=; b=s3C39kIKoYrDqng/oIf0BeG/8em23u1nIGwUe+lclPVD7berTdcOhpXBxI22zt7GMb ghVIzWEhjh6hNGGn6tI+PWnWDc1ndteeaP99rJVZdF2PKjMbMxx0b033i6oWKiX8XMGs A9Sw50KM1ATOBGeKZpuYtXIWlQtQjw+mY/MTAD8qSjBZ4ycuVWv3eheIrUgZPV1DrJU8 G5fTM+38E3iJArmZFPge/PYdGz6TkUlFUvCZKJDyMrrKVCeHv19EHd1Xd1+BkvQCk/2v kiaLOw976wA3UP5mrVSW5rPB+uO21Egt2v4zM+fi9NS+9fS7BYfPFeOOs1Xv0TvlppRV lLHw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3yJ5WmFTOHT59UNCxKaAUstMLW0l1GA3X6XFflO02f87TtnYJo mT3jS95JFWhoIqz4XVwejtHZWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJY1LpILUcalpURsVfdI1BdfJiRgmWvO1U0B1NuR0rA1bu3bLgFrvBqcD1Lo9O9/gUTNXfGSw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:b1ca:: with SMTP id r10-v6mr14337421wra.221.1529439282642; Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tron.luk.heistp.net (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s191-v6sm1486989wmd.27.2018.06.19.13.14.41 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EDD76DF3-0106-403C-BC37-139DE4718003" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Pete Heist In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:14:41 +0200 Cc: Cake List Message-Id: <280044CA-F23B-4FF5-83DE-ECCAC05AAA3B@heistp.net> References: <87in6ft81g.fsf@toke.dk> <0FF888EC-4FF0-4AAE-B2B8-79A10B0B5A9E@gmail.com> <877emvt2ij.fsf@toke.dk> <6D5348AC-921E-49D3-B6D0-9CC30874B80D@heistp.net> <1CC8F6F6-94E1-4987-928E-29BDE01787BC@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Subject: Re: [Cake] the Cake stalemate X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:14:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EDD76DF3-0106-403C-BC37-139DE4718003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 19, 2018, at 6:24 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > "forking" code and living out of tree for a while has been a way to > spin faster on solving thorny problems, and welcome newer, > less experienced devs to a difficult codebase while encouraging folk > in the problem domain to enter. I hadn=E2=80=99t though of that. It=E2=80=99s important. > I am an increasingly > lousy programmer, (for the record my best languages were lisp and perl > 15+ years back), and these days far more interested in politics and > theory, than in the grunge of programming (I do confess interest in go > which is cheering me up Maybe give Go some more time before hanging up the editor? It looks like = it will be around a while, and =E2=80=9Casymptotically approaching = boring=E2=80=9D as they like to say about it. (an oldie but a goodie: = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsln-gJaURzk = ). > Cake specifically is not modular to gain benefits. sort of like the monolithic kernel that way... > I'm oft-boggled by what it has become. I think it just shows there=E2=80=99s a need for all of it, but I still = never felt like we=E2=80=99ve fully nailed how to explain it. It=E2=80=99s= not easy! For the untechnical, I don=E2=80=99t think we can do much = better than =E2=80=9Cit makes your Internet faster=E2=80=9D, which is = what most people want, to get on with their lives and any =E2=80=9Csetting= s=E2=80=9D are already too many. For more technical people, it=E2=80=99s = a series of features that deserve individual explanation, like you have = in your slides, only it=E2=80=99s a lot to fit into 20 minutes. I=E2=80=99= ll try to look at it again. > I go through long periods unsubscribed to the netdev mailing list. I > can't stand the patch volume; just watching it go by burns me out. I > feel the pain of those compelled to be on it, and have a great deal of > sympathy for dave miller's irascibility. In person eric, david, > stephen are *great*. Jesper, dave woodhouse, Jon corbet are *amazing*. > so many people are great in person but testy on mailing lists. some > are great on mailing lists but lousy in person=E2=80=A6. > The main reason why I'm on nedev is to spot interesting new features > and watch bugs get found and fixed, and I'm hoping to get off of it > again a few months after cake makes it in. With a sigh of relief. Thanks for those insights. Kernel-space isn=E2=80=99t for everyone I = guess... > Maybe this userspace wifi emulator will get funded. Not feeling burned > out over having to face c or the kernel again feels good. Please let=E2=80=99s try. I think we can do a good job with it, and WiFi = testing is a real pain point. My closet looks ridiculous (pictures to = come), and I bet I have the most reasonable setup of any of us. Would it = be an open source project? > the cake codebase has benefited hugely by finally getting more review > from the top devs in the field now, and I applaud y'alls persistence. > We'll find this last bug, and then=E2=80=A6 Wish I could help more with development but there may be too much = bootstrapping for me with what little left is needed. I=E2=80=99ve never = been able to really fault in the source.= --Apple-Mail=_EDD76DF3-0106-403C-BC37-139DE4718003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jun 19, 2018, at 6:24 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>= wrote:

"forking" code and living out of tree for a while has been a = way to
spin faster on solving thorny problems, and welcome = newer,
less experienced devs to a difficult codebase while = encouraging folk
in the problem domain to = enter.

I hadn=E2=80= =99t though of that. It=E2=80=99s important.

I am an increasingly
lousy programmer, (for the = record my best languages were lisp and perl
15+ years = back), and these days far more interested in politics and
theory, than in the grunge of programming (I do confess = interest in go
which is cheering me up

Maybe = give Go some more time before hanging up the editor? It looks like it = will be around a while, and =E2=80=9Casymptotically approaching = boring=E2=80=9D as they like to say about it. (an oldie but a = goodie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsln-gJaURzk).
<= br class=3D"">
Cake specifically is not modular to gain = benefits.

sort of like the monolithic kernel that = way...

I'm oft-boggled by what it has become.

I think it just shows there=E2=80=99s a need for = all of it, but I still never felt like we=E2=80=99ve fully nailed how to = explain it. It=E2=80=99s not easy! For the untechnical, I don=E2=80=99t = think we can do much better than =E2=80=9Cit makes your Internet = faster=E2=80=9D, which is what most people want, to get on with their = lives and any =E2=80=9Csettings=E2=80=9D are already too many. For more = technical people, it=E2=80=99s a series of features that deserve = individual explanation, like you have in your slides, only it=E2=80=99s = a lot to fit into 20 minutes. I=E2=80=99ll try to look at it = again.

I go through long periods = unsubscribed to the netdev mailing list. I
can't stand the = patch volume; just watching it go by burns me out. I
feel = the pain of those compelled to be on it, and have a great deal of
sympathy for dave miller's irascibility. In person eric, = david,
stephen are *great*. Jesper, dave woodhouse, Jon = corbet are *amazing*.
so many people are great in person = but testy on mailing lists. some
are great on mailing = lists but lousy in person=E2=80=A6.
The main reason = why I'm on nedev is to spot interesting new features
and = watch bugs get found and fixed, and I'm hoping to get off of it
again a few months after cake makes it in. With a sigh of = relief.

Thanks for those insights. Kernel-space isn=E2=80=99= t for everyone I guess...

Maybe this userspace wifi = emulator will get funded. Not feeling burned
out over = having to face c or the kernel again feels good.

Please = let=E2=80=99s try. I think we can do a good job with it, and WiFi = testing is a real pain point. My closet looks ridiculous (pictures to = come), and I bet I have the most reasonable setup of any of us. Would it = be an open source project?

the cake codebase has = benefited hugely by finally getting more review
from the = top devs in the field now, and I applaud y'alls persistence.
We'll find this last bug, and = then=E2=80=A6

Wish= I could help more with development but there may be too much = bootstrapping for me with what little left is needed. I=E2=80=99ve never = been able to really fault in the source.= --Apple-Mail=_EDD76DF3-0106-403C-BC37-139DE4718003--