From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4FBF3CB35 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 03:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id 64so962864wme.3 for ; Fri, 05 Jan 2018 00:19:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=rjz5ec54KG/fM6ktV3CqsMHqSi2L5XtG/LBw1GsdTO4=; b=tnT+PY94Jus0Eq1GGs/RT9DYUYhQKcJiA+xvbSHxioBAYyiid6kDMSlmCCIfhLE7os o4IjcsOzT6My0DAz6yg+OuFKI/2lxPBBVNqmnyTij58IHQI8PZNdrU5mFJtZngcN1Ukl RiXxd3m/54ILSGBSFOFfro+RuygJic9H5C5CHyCvSPlZ+6o5RyB0aGdnfu4J50BdBjYL p2Zg1nbw5h26xGBla2GH6YPpC1adCAz3rmNzHjSW9OvPOgDNLxOqlegk9DUmnrETfaHQ 5q9dt6osX2+mngnxrbQPzieHyLzd0AsA89iOwWTXjUEMyC6NWrVvKl9XJ1lqZDX20T/X MbJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=rjz5ec54KG/fM6ktV3CqsMHqSi2L5XtG/LBw1GsdTO4=; b=Wcv5keyp9t2hZqbrhG+6kN95KWY5hsyXi++mNUJKU1bI88FZNx7d/6d+ZueOOZI1IO FTGEavCPWI2pwSMeoY1KWZMkpJJbFqYbt4xqilwzAYERHZGJmBf9et8wDlmeLZ3YXKpt m4Q0xOUhunTb9BIrIlQEYaO6qouXnMvVh8azoqucO+vxdFpxJkpJkPK+uvE7/VgHe5zL 42UZh7rRjdBICh3BEt19sZfKG1iQCK1x01USHvwZXsBOTPg75it5859xMFqYfWH10V0z /Vm7km8gpeFWyMlOMep3dInx5HstCwssU+1RaYydJuN/OFmyUZ/E0U/uDiTD5ssf7z2A fJog== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLHp2dw62JfdzfkNEkGBXwVSp3kEE/USwke40dDqKnaGbOccDJO /EuqaUGNYtR6IzojRd3QS4U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovGjib1ds+MAeZVE4ePPYO1UbiXAttiDJf6YGrLr0Nk5X7efyLUdPKbi8VuRgG1U0wA6PPKbg== X-Received: by 10.28.149.131 with SMTP id x125mr1514558wmd.129.1515140387343; Fri, 05 Jan 2018 00:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.72.0.130] (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z78sm2350622wrb.67.2018.01.05.00.19.46 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jan 2018 00:19:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A7916F34-D4E5-4605-A5F2-B43A6FDFEA61" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Pete Heist In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 09:19:50 +0100 Cc: Luca Muscariello , Cake List Message-Id: <3B5853E8-7B19-4A83-BB59-4C1E47A935BB@gmail.com> References: <87bmi97l3w.fsf@toke.dk> To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Subject: Re: [Cake] Modification of DRR with deficit saving X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 08:19:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A7916F34-D4E5-4605-A5F2-B43A6FDFEA61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > Yes, SYN rate limiting is the default (and set very low) in nearly > everything. That might be measurable. QUIC is now 7% of internet > traffic. >=20 > Done fixing the home. It's time to fix the rest of the internet. And > that's not just queue theory but address assignment and routing. > Here's > a traceroute from where I sit in Nicaragua at the moment, post cake. > How to figure out exactly how much NAT is on the path? After the net neutrality rollback in the US (along with the ongoing = cable monopolies there), it occurred to me that there may be more = interest in cooperative ISPs. Frankly, I don=E2=80=99t know why it = hasn=E2=80=99t happened sooner. But having worked with one in Europe, I = saw a patchwork of =E2=80=9Cgood enough, kind of=E2=80=9D software that = is stitched together to get the job done=E2=80=A6stuff from Ubiquiti, = other vendors and various open source projects of different vintages. In = this case they did/do a great job with what=E2=80=99s available, but I = think they'd be the first to admit it could be better. There may be a need for more modern, cross-device management software to = serve small to medium sized cooperative ISPs like this, and that there = may be a viable, long-term business model here. I picture a small server = on each device to be managed and a management server (serving a = mobile-first, conversational UI?). Queueing is an important part of = this, if a small part of the work as a whole, unfortunately. This = wouldn=E2=80=99t be a small undertaking. I=E2=80=99m "just saying=E2=80=9D= (and getting off the original topic as well, just what I read here made = me think of it)=E2=80=A6= --Apple-Mail=_A7916F34-D4E5-4605-A5F2-B43A6FDFEA61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>= wrote:

Yes, SYN rate limiting is the default = (and set very low) in nearly
everything. That might be measurable. = QUIC is now 7% of internet
traffic.

Done fixing the home. It's time to fix the rest = of the internet. And
that's not just queue theory but address = assignment and routing.
Here's
a traceroute from where I sit in = Nicaragua at the moment, post cake.
How to figure out exactly how much NAT is = on the path?

After = the net neutrality rollback in the US (along with the ongoing cable = monopolies there), it occurred to me that there may be more interest in = cooperative ISPs. Frankly, I don=E2=80=99t know why it hasn=E2=80=99t = happened sooner. But having worked with one in Europe, I saw a patchwork = of =E2=80=9Cgood enough, kind of=E2=80=9D software that is stitched = together to get the job done=E2=80=A6stuff from Ubiquiti, other vendors = and various open source projects of different vintages. In this case = they did/do a great job with what=E2=80=99s available, but I think = they'd be the first to admit it could be better.

There may be a need for more modern, = cross-device management software to serve small to medium sized = cooperative ISPs like this, and that there may be a viable, long-term = business model here. I picture a small server on each device to be = managed and a management server (serving a mobile-first, conversational = UI?). Queueing is an important part of this, if a small part of the work = as a whole, unfortunately. This wouldn=E2=80=99t be a small undertaking. = I=E2=80=99m "just saying=E2=80=9D (and getting off the original topic as = well, just what I read here made me think of it)=E2=80=A6
= --Apple-Mail=_A7916F34-D4E5-4605-A5F2-B43A6FDFEA61--