From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 806E43B29E for ; Wed, 3 May 2017 02:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.17.3.29] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M5HZD-1e0DYB3jwt-00zYZH; Wed, 03 May 2017 08:51:48 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <1493789805885.56806@telenor.com> Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:51:46 +0200 Cc: me@lochnair.net, cake@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <647E5E04-C77A-426E-914A-88AE553F7B33@gmx.de> References: <1493397540.4184.959563328.3AB236CD@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1493721285271.28909@telenor.com> <1493727080.1510042.962956680.40220FCB@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1493789805885.56806@telenor.com> To: erik.taraldsen@telenor.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:cUxA0H7/ImCiwzAdeCvKobMAdmFYahq3hnDgVR3ritNwhY1zMDK iJUychY+lAsJTxd+QwzXmMG8pIp7FepIquoIe6J/ugs9kf7niyp/kn57963SsI/EDdOtE3X zQuohauiKVz9o8XFxMYKNrVFk4GGGkTAqhKzrnQAt2SOiNbj68wpAddsx0+dRQN19/olU+y fcjIxgGVdiXa80kbFiCQg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:OiwYRzwWoYw=:omfXi4fBP0jRfBuZ6pLpPa Ly2b4BsMoCwP724h8buYZIo9Dk/ru+2aA8z6vB4cNQakuyTm62qk/13gHa7R8rd3mwJqEQmw6 fZL4+p/Vn2lvfwC0bTlY7sxldWFU39w7w5W082P6FMTJZmvlrRY4W9Cqu9mlGzOUPNBEoatcx ORJP4igGcDqldXkQLTYdXUzdu1czFAhGFfQRx0KWuSTa0WNNIY4ww3G5y64ZwO7K37ylgHofx Usu1qo2cv064HeNI0xApU8Xji5fkOv9o0PiKINmhdCA+FqLk+6+z0gL+3cAVKk8wpedshM8Ix jqfRMQa2qn3/CrwlO8MnR86VQJb+nQLAOyNNublZcfSlNrwhfHvLMElZDjBFLpdWlXKlkgsv1 zf0wKYtIfv6pPFERmWU9RJRwpN5q+Mv846SfZua2i2aT67uOXWEl/8Rqcgoyrc90YcdqPDyIL R6XrdFDi2yswRlGq0z5YbYZitRL0bIDxeFyELUp7LDlZS0Ylp2dN6i4Ou6vDgZbzHmbdb7bYY aQOdxvLUsdiR1SuyMI0tZf5p78HGR6k9pfGpbzGxBavcwrVZFcuGBjANYjWqGEO3Sd0SJHCKk FHYLzrfpHexMQUfY5CU198tLT0HU34zSpusPrpcro4TgyE2He4htPHikmrhfxXD0dXTJotljm sIVvGzF6NlJFN0FSpMFEB0QdTcYU19yXwv8ixAbRgnBbsgoWCiYu9lso600fyTEp44fkHNUch t+9VOFKbmlqzfxP3kJcqq6y71RMSwE+0QPT5ocJ3L4XGRvjBMMMhy6oOWPPmAlD/C9TZ2nG3m bQwn3nd Subject: Re: [Cake] Recomended HW to run cake and fq_codel? X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 06:51:53 -0000 > On May 3, 2017, at 07:36, = wrote: >=20 >> Fra: Nils Andreas Svee >>=20 >> just fine, but I'd probably pick the ER-X-SFP for the beefier CPU, if >> only to get some extra headroom.=20 >=20 > Then ER-X-SFP it is.=20 >=20 >=20 >> DSL tends to suck pretty (read: very) bad without proper shaping, I >> know. On that note, are you planning to run an AQM on both ends of = the >> bottleneck, or shape ingress traffic via a IFB device? CAKE helps a = lot >> when running on ingress, but it can't come close to running on both >> ends. >=20 > I intended to only shape on egress for this experiement. =20 Okay... > Let downstream be handled by the BRAS's policies (Juniper ERX in our = case). =20 So my ISP, (DTAG) does ingress shaping at the BRAS/BNG level and = it is not terrible (see https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/6796065 ) = it still is a far cry from performance with proper ingress shaping (see: = https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/9507819 ). My interpretation of = that is that the BRAS/BNG ingress shaper is too relaxed and the link = behaves noticeably better if that shaper is exercised only rarely. If = seen as a last line of defense against extreme latency under load = increases it still has some merits though. Question: as an ISP what is your rationale to implement a shaper = at the BRAS? Simply the fact that DSLAMs/MSANs are not capable to do it, = or do you also need this to make sure there is always room for your own = VoIP packets? > Most of the customer "speed" complaints come from not throughput but = latency. And that latency is mostly ADSL/VDSL customers with large = uploads to cloud services. So I think that we will by handling the = upstream better make a large improvement. =20 Well any shaping is going to help and egress shaping can be = implemented at literally no bandwidth sacrifice so more power to you! I = would humbly like to recommend a few issues regarding ADSL links: 0) get rid of all non-essential encapsulations, use DHCP option 82 = instead of PPPoE, rethink the need for VLAN tags, 1) make sure to properly account for all the quirks of ATM=E2=80=99s = AAL5 encapsulation (see cake=E2=80=99s atm keyword or =E2=80=9Cman = tc-stab=E2=80=9D) 2) preferably hoist your ADSL customers into the present and get your = device manufacturers to implement PTM for adsl modems making 1) above = much less involved ;) 3) as proposed by others, if you can get your CPE manufacturers to = implement BQL for the xDSL interface than you might not even need to run = a shaper on egress. Even though cake offers so much goodness with its = different isolation modes that allow to configure per-internal-host = fairness that even if the modem has BQL it still might be a customer = friendly idea to run cake on the modem. I note that many lede/openwrt = users seem to be quite happy with per-internal host fairness (but = typically also want this on ingress, and for that I believe you need to = have an ingress shaper on the CPE where it can peek into the NAT tables = to figure out the internal IPs) > But, hey, I call it an experiemnt because it is an experiemnt. If we = see significant improvements by using IFB for downstream as well. =20 My prediction is that per-internal-host fairness probably makes it = desirable to have an ingress shaper as well=E2=80=A6 (If you include a = dedicated bit-torrent host into your test matrix this might become = obvious ;) ) Best Regards Sebastian > Then we will try to see what we can do to implement this. >=20 >=20 > -Erik > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake