From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4363B25E for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.137.13.46] ([95.91.197.216]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LmbZb-1bkTS71W8R-00aBP3; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 00:49:36 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: moeller0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 00:49:21 +0200 Cc: Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant , cake@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <65184CD2-7205-4D93-9AD3-20F68C461E0E@gmx.de> References: <7409a52d-8c81-25f0-e070-c7638fdf9d83@gmail.com> <5759E14D.1050806@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> To: Jonathan Morton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:rzk6hJz2qn5TxjEtA3mFVVm+ragcwIcbSAhx4P/FsS7dcpf3g1D HdlRA0/oCXDd8p5dwVtaK4b9l2tb0GWp81o7XNqcly6eA0m8gxBFykfpXQULUX++MH7fAbD DAMemGacpSSOPbzTC7GBIODqT5mWVJihgu6l77zyf99dJNaR4GGwdyiaKODGTmq5vdUGbpR WGnxJjSUiV8g8Ng5ujI1w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:/5/uFN6DMcQ=:qL4A9Nv3lpdM+sk6/mn4ag eprnopNvQ/PaS+BDF1nozqYtRRT/gtuAxpoUeFGxSA1KoXQUiKr/A+IgUaBbkTuEbp9c7iGko 3vkmUQDmXr4daFkDPpojYRkVD+stduIZV88u6GcVG7FOOi/+PNEbvPJdxURHUVBAZDZazjxCV jQd98AgDpHOz43qBJXhH2nJq/t3GxICSH1dOaxN8JMUe9gwf7FS2+5Ao2f21QAemZSk1FZnHL RZlsAtnsHtRfqTt1ThijkzKtVBuJNkzLmFkvTun5mWM7TmPkmzaOKjVBsrzPqR9MkS6tBEVp3 ncwEJcg1r9kYk5hYqrWp4VNYKKNlVbfiB6AGFqJeAaNraCVc4HZo/VF5ynAs1o1fEJ1tNypdM CWhWiFSfC0f7Mk56CkThb3EPUG5Xwvzp4Ed0LkB/sVD56CHkSjsv9pjf68fKrLTB/yksqE3D0 II3ICQOVbXqsUINb16pvtUTd/prdepPj242XXqYeZKzpeQsPtfeL9PX+zlBlgtwHZtv/I1Yec +roHF7JTdJtUohhdOhNWInFhFvCYcWEKgBocMYKY2HQ03PaAn9/HBb/JSPPgvICnX07+1mLYP +/eyOyDpqJMZocuyEiKnZZvErxX6svgjxtfeTlOYJFa0HaLNFyRCJdZQHTP1g/FJ9vCSPv4De WcyqjTifThKhO32xVs1wybDH7xvyRyxkhcsL3dEHU1kVwU3ZWyPWrqX98z986KpUu+cq1PQd0 Y7Hg91DufrvI80gRY2CFLGwXK1R+ISP5g0kpgUGpdNN2WsST/f9kYbll96qHywLy99QbnNjxP 1MNmuYlcFFBOCVaJUid/hYoM+v0dA== Subject: Re: [Cake] New to cake. Some questions X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 22:49:40 -0000 Hi Jonathan, > On Jun 10, 2016, at 00:17 , Jonathan Morton = wrote: >=20 >> On 10 Jun, 2016, at 00:36, Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant = wrote: >>=20 >>> 5. Is there still the udp packet dropping problem? e.g. games that = are using udp. >>> If yes does it make sense to apply diffserv classes manually? How to = do this? >=20 >> What udp packet problem? >=20 > He=E2=80=99s probably referring to the tendency of non-flow-isolating = AQMs to drop packets indiscriminately when under load. >=20 > Cake is flow-isolating and thus applies a separate AQM algorithm to = each flow. As such, UDP gaming/VoIP traffic won=E2=80=99t get dropped = unless it exceeds its fair share of the link, which is unlikely for a = well-designed, lightweight protocol. >=20 > We really should make an effort to put a more intuitive GUI interface = on this. These questions indicate a v. Let me be frank to the level of impoliteness, let=E2=80=99s = tests things first and once they work as described in the mostly missing = documentation then let=E2=80=99s work on a GUI (a GUI is the wrong place = to fix up a bad CLI interface for instance). I am sorry that I have to = be so blunt, but I fear due to me not being a native english speaker, we = will not be able to unambiguously communicate. So here is my top five list of cake related topics that I would = appreciate if you could address them: 1) the isolation options: Does triple-isolate really work, and what is the theoretical = prediction how it should exactly work?=20 The last test indicates we might have problems there Do the dual isolation options work as intended, and what exactly = is intended?=20 Recent tests indicate they might work, but they are = nasty to set up for users, due to the NAT issue. How much additional CPU load do these options cause, or what is = the computational cost expressed in lost bandwidth or additionally = gained latency under load? We are currently trying to distribute a few test scripts to = openwrt volunters to help answer these question, but before they are = answered I vote to not further exposing anything isolation related in = the sqm-scripts GUI. We (well at least I do) plan to use the results of = these tests to decide whether to change the defaults for cake under = sqm-scripts. But even if the tests work out we need the man page to = describe reasonably well what tho expect, so users can decide about the = applicability of the isolation option based on there needs. 2) auto-rate: The same recent test indicated that auto-rate might not work = well on a fixed rate link. This is somewhat unexpected as a fixed rate = can be easily seen as a corner-case for a variable rate. I would vote = for researching why this is, and anyway documenting the suitability for = variable or fixed rate links more prominently so our users can make = informed policy choices for their home networks. 3) the dreaded encapsulation keywords Please address the issues I raised in too many mails this = months=E2=80=A6 which boil down to questions of scope =E2=80=9Cwhy are = the vdsl options suffixed with _ptm, but the atm options are not?=E2=80=9D= and of minimality =E2=80=9Cis the currently selected set of keywords = minimal and complete?=E2=80=9D and transparene =E2=80=9Cwill a user of a = compund keyword be easily able to predict all side effects?=E2=80=9D and = confusion =E2=80=9Cwhy name something conservative that will for all = peop;e not using an ATM link cost between 9 to 40% of goodput?=E2=80=9D. = Since all of this is a question for tc and not so much core cake, things = should be relatively quick to sort out, but they should be sorted out = before distributing cake wider/ or exposing the currently marginally = consistent state to more users. As if we expose to much it becomes API = and immutable=E2=80=A6 4) documantation: I fully agree with your conclusion that a =E2=80=9Cuser = overwhelmed by many options without guidance=E2=80=9D. So please = write/improve the =E2=80=9Cmissing=E2=80=9D man page and description of = algorithms already. Given that you designed all the core of cake you are = the best qualified person to do this. 5) development focus/sequence: My understanding is that cake currently contains a fair number = of interesting and relevant functions that our users certainly want and = will appreciate. Unfortunately, some of those do not seem to be = adequately documented (see 4) and some might actually be not ready for = primetime (that requires further coformatory testing that I am willing = and in the process of helping with). I would be really happy if you = could give a tentative development priority list, so that we can = harmonize testing features with your development, so that the testing = actually helps you in your process. But please do not drag in GUI before cake and tc are fully =E2=80=9Cbaked=E2= =80=9D. Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > - Jonathan Morton >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake