From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 093153BA8E for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.16.11.169] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mb7lL-1fkRn03Ovr-00Khk4; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:42:25 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:42:24 +0200 Cc: Pete Heist , Cake List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A0DE58C-5DE6-4490-A90D-CB09761A6833@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ad5nHAhjPi11G7pgMiw48I9yeihvlAzySuNHDffcfuZsRIjlFb2 fB+LkengN6LdRY3MJur0u0vA/7G/Ae32Uho8DSGoKqZ2jaw+qQiPA/ZFGCEIvSy/uf1oN+D xoA3tc37SQDr5srqlA3lZRL7+d/LPcZzLJgkZpqfu/FP+EUSgeF1xcx9vT+df6K0L8NYhok f4ImrD2TtrYu3W0Vs4dHQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:TXePDXnSb1A=:mcP2VnvjGoIuilOW6kCSfv sXiWvzBzMqVIERqwsQMkkfRxSHx5hbLTphJvZjyjkFhPsnFDFsyhm5uHJ3P80nIjRcO3l8ZRQ Y1oa21uWs5bbkQ6Z8fI0cj7y2RyPgKzZMTME20xB5YB4BkXqgqngvrQ9Sge329lbu5HuwW4B7 3afA9IWnJJYl6fGTTu/cBU9jKuOcjP7Ctttda+k/kEOoyUoMHP74uizA/dk+7bjnVeOmdboGm /b+oSzD1pgzfh/pJoppxs8/uNXSQi6aVTTRM2s0p0J2NDqo1f+/TjTmyW+vj1jkMhuKuN3ccd GzTvNm32S3P5XiJiLE6gbskhdfF2opacrcAH1G6jA5NrpHvgsx6/n14aS+s89kf+5F+2d4Qv3 ujB3y9b7TG5UWP6ir1quB+k3cA6uEEX28itIFzmOLDOg1SB4jmBwdnD+aE3bmaQi8NgStu4DT 7eF6rvuJcHyGxPOVc6kZ4TxyMnXr7cERxjPjodd6+tw2Lb6274KHQNK8QbEwFXUXge8Pf9cHE Lg2IRPUZ2fbtScO1B3i/wvqlOBu5IT0ylii556310JGteBib01h9mRv93Am2yCoR81RzLsqQh 4qjgSv/suEZqB4zzbkZphpaatlydnv1a8AA4mH2aVsqJWWq6Vp2Kc8UvElDakslyxjL+LqCGe GS0y8D6WeJ43hF6Ye+bd4uIBc91X0eP90Uexma9Q8oObvEjeaFTm9RFMNnszUBismQkN+MdK2 yPaYCoPtPlC9MRFdlxDDRyOuiKH4SlxchCcHUKwECwdZ7Xm10IbIB0jCK9NuYAhWmQrkjG4UF 1yWpFst Subject: Re: [Cake] lanman2018 cake talk ideas X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:42:28 -0000 Hi Dave, > On Jun 21, 2018, at 05:43, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > I think your "megabit myth" idea (and language) would be a very > powerful paper and/or talk to try and hammer home in multiple venues. >=20 > I might spend a slide on it at this conference, but it deserves more > focus than that. So I like the idea of using traditional transport methods like = semitrailers and containerships to illustrate bandwidth versus latency. I once guesstimated that a semi trailer full of 2TB hardisks across the = USA will have around 1Tbps Bandwidth but a one-way delay larger than 43 = hours That IMHO shows the weak linkage between bandwidth and latency and why = focussing on bandwidth alone will not work well with interactive use = cases. But this might both be too obvious and too cynic... Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:45 AM, Pete Heist wrote: >>=20 >> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >>=20 >> Try as I might, finding a memorable narrative hook to fit into 20 >> minutes eludes me. There's so much to cake! There's no room for me to >> break out a guitar or carry a case of water bottles into this press. >>=20 >>=20 >> To me, explaining this stuff is about trying to connect the = technology with >> relatable human experience, and asserting/showing that the continued = focus >> on throughput is misplaced. Is this audience already aware of that, = or not? >> Maybe test them up front to see how much you need to talk about it. = If you >> assume they know this and they don=E2=80=99t, the blank stares will = start a minute >> or two into the talk... >>=20 >> If at least some people in the audience need an explanation, or even = if you >> just want to hammer it home, for this type of crowd (should at least = be >> somewhat technical), why not make an analogy with the =E2=80=9CMegahert= z myth=E2=80=9D? That >> finally died in 2005 with the Pentium Extreme Edition (with the = =E2=80=9CExtreme=E2=80=9D >> part not describing its speed, but rather its flirtation with thermal >> limits), when AMD came out with a =E2=80=9Cslower=E2=80=9D CPU that = was actually faster. >> Finally there was an awareness that ah, it=E2=80=99s not just clock = speed, it=E2=80=99s >> pipelines, it=E2=80=99s caching, it=E2=80=99s branch prediction, = it=E2=80=99s the instruction set, >> it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated, and there=E2=80=99s no getting = around it. >>=20 >> Let=E2=80=99s start arguing that there=E2=80=99s an analogous = =E2=80=9CMegabit myth=E2=80=9D that has no >> Wikipedia page yet because it persists to this day. Analogous to the >> megahertz myth, it=E2=80=99s not just =E2=80=9Cmegabits per = second=E2=80=9D, but it=E2=80=99s inter-flow >> latency, it=E2=80=99s intra-flow latency, it=E2=80=99s fairness, = it=E2=80=99s IPDV, it=E2=80=99s all of this >> under dynamic loads, it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated. And because = it=E2=80=99s a complicated >> problem, Cake has a number of solutions built into it, which you=E2=80=99= ll talk >> about... Perhaps Cake=E2=80=99s mascot should be a multi-headed = creature of some >> kind (the monster that Eric referred to), maybe a hydra. Cake is = definitely >> multi-headed. :) >>=20 >> If this audience is aware of this already, just move beyond it more = quickly, >> but it=E2=80=99s worth hammering it home at least a bit, because = again, where=E2=80=99s that >> "Megabit myth" Wikipedia page? It doesnt exist, because it hasn=E2=80=99= t yet sunk >> in to the general consciousness that hey, why are we paying for = 50Mbit >> symmetric fiber connections that can feel like 5Mbit ADSL? >>=20 >> Will the abandonment of network neutrality finally be the =E2=80=9CPent= ium Extreme >> Edition=E2=80=9D that brings the megabit myth to a head? >>=20 >> A principal complaint of the reviewers of the paper was the lack of >> real world tests, so I snuck in a couple sides for that and am = working >> on incorporating the graphs and other text from the paper. >>=20 >>=20 >> I hadn=E2=80=99t noticed that complaint, but it=E2=80=99s legit. RRUL = tests are interesting >> and point out what =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D happen, but long-term = =E2=80=9Cbefore and after=E2=80=9D tests >> on real networks and backhauls would be real proof. This doesn=E2=80=99= t help you at >> this late stage in the game, but let=E2=80=99s take that comment to = heart in the >> future. Meanwhile, do we have any quotes from users on how it = improved their >> experience, or is that too anecdotal? or quotes from people in the = field? >>=20 >> What does a ieee lanman2018 audience already grok, what needs to be >> explained? >>=20 >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s a key question, you=E2=80=99ll probably have to feel = the audience out unless >> someone knows the conference already? >>=20 >> I will be periodically updating the currently very raw >>=20 >> http://www.taht.net/~d/cake/ieee.odp >>=20 >> as we go along. Please share your thoughts.... >>=20 >>=20 >> Will do, or also write if you=E2=80=99re in need of something = specific=E2=80=A6 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake