From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4643F3B2A4 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 07:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.17.3.29] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MD9q8-1cm74T3Gjk-00GV5O; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:34:37 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:34:35 +0200 Cc: David Lang , cake@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D8540DA-7AA3-4366-9488-DC1C266C598E@gmx.de> References: <05C0B0C7-4337-4115-AC6B-DA81392FCB34@gmail.com> <22E633CF-5EE0-4B0F-89A8-B790E730FB6C@gmx.de> <0BA3EE91-C5BC-4155-9D5D-D15D34490A1A@gmx.de> <00DDAA0B-7D99-489B-BA2D-1F20289409B3@gmx.de> <2FFBF256-2932-4FC7-AD1F-0D7CEE111809@gmx.de> To: Dendari Marini X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:esDQXLiLkUwMoW5raCsoHOstKmVcB+u7qlXi2t6fmEy9LidtTBz cxFK8Un+VGFsjkeJ9tU7u/WT4tjo8/QD1XVpQhebUZDvc2QLd1oG96FxIZcUy/nC5Y/WtT0 g7gyhbtsukSAbB0J8rSy4P/AvTUmqcZ7/+nlZFoJc6higswWageyho6LOUhCJ5aKnuzSVS1 dO3SUi8TKzHEkOPhAwXOg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:N9LYV7Acc1c=:Zy+jZA8vEIwbOy+3apLl2W QvzdWRI53yLTGDjZ1wJ7kdOLUsCF1d0qgnZ8981mJTwjTbKq/u1ZJ6vugm70f6vxexRzLl5kY GS8fAATzGcZjr0c9WpuCofEOTcyXDIFd+6/IK/GiyBCt0wy054REjmn8D40JumfmkKm78zjsm 9upe28p4DF7JH3swTmZUd445bjUph1Qq6hE/6gyxUmvYGXVJRNnFvz9GqWe1SN9DzrCVE+41k fmHkB11czhZccEoAygS7/47Ma2doK603+/I8nQb7pDT/7tsaAfIyfufqhY2vHPUJTgaW2hdzJ GcHBrxPrvrQfoY1Q9Np2LxkgKkI97wBQcQXYnaeKDSOd5odMSIcut97TV/qP2f/mgb5RWEfeX zIANeUmDoxBOBltl5Htpid/kjgaqTmLsuAVMrMfO9kZ74ANWAtV8Gzk2b0wdaRsVQYjGvac2Z 50OYiDxgrBcv4dFNfOfopLYd9E/UUGF/ypgNhHOHiIS17z9zkxxltkFE+p5N34WcbvudYGZ9B XJaakFmuB/YQycxMKlktChnHBVzIae9yzv2bM1kcp3YNY/g6gnNrybEdMOLBSSvka5JLds/D3 2OrZEJQklhmkc8GB/mviEkbkv6S1aA58nM5yDead2ecpIYPjQFDWh729shLJzTzh2knoDBcyo 8glXlyLAh8+Hefu8gfKSSh5nsW102aXnyinasn21QBVF01Se1R4XAFi/4abyBe/Pu6gy9z09p 6pkdFuqYuAPR5qJpEDNIRY5ZxOrKOSyTNuK053APDeacOxTuuaTwIhmBRarlxfRwdvW/0j9AR pAYOp7F Subject: Re: [Cake] Getting Cake to work better with Steam and similar applications X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:34:49 -0000 Hello, > On Apr 24, 2017, at 10:41, Dendari Marini wrote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > Probably correct, but you do not have to resort to believing, you can = actually try to measure that ;) In case I have been too subtle before, = have a look at https://github.com/moeller0/ATM_overhead_detector and = follow the instructions there... >=20 > I just used your script and it estimated an overhead of 20 bytes, so = should I use "overhead 20 atm" or am I missing something? In the last = few days I've been using "pppoe-llcsnap" ("overhead 40 atm") without any = evident issue, should I change it? Hmm, 20 seems rather interesting and something I never saw = before. Could you share the two output plots somewhere, so I can have a = look at those? (Also I might want tto ask for the text file that = actually was generated by the ping collector script, just so I can run = and confirm/de-bug things my self). I am not saying 20 is impossible, = just that it is improbable enough to require more scrutiny. Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > FWIW here's a quick example on ingress ppp that I tested using = connmark > the connmarks (1 or 2 or unmarked) being set by iptables rules on = outbound > connections/traffic classes. >=20 > Unfortunately I'm really not sure how to apply those settings to my = case, it's something I've never done so some hand-holding is probably = needed, sorry. At the moment I've limited the Steam bandwidth using the = built-in Basic Queue and DPI features from the ER-X. They're easy to set = up but aren't really ideal, would rather prefer Cake would take care = about it more dynamically. >=20 > Anyway about the Steam IP addresses I've noticed, in the almost three = weeks of testing, they're almost always the same IP blocks (most of = which can be found on the Steam Support website, = https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3D8571-GLVN-8711). I = believe it would be a good starting point for limiting Steam, what do = you think? >=20 > On 24 April 2017 at 09:55, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi David, >=20 > > On Apr 23, 2017, at 14:32, David Lang wrote: > > > > On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > > >>> About the per-host fairness download issue: while it's kinda = resolved I still feel like it's mainly related to Steam, as normally = downloading files from PC1 and PC2 halved the speed as expected even at = full bandwidth (so no overhead, no -15%). > >> > >> This might be true, but for cake to meaningfully resolve = bufferbloat you absolutely _must_ take care to account for encapsulation = and overhead one way or another. > > > > well, one way to account for this overhead is to set the allowed = bandwidth low enough. Being precise on this overhead lets you get closer = to the actual line rate, but if you have enough bandwidth, it may not = really matter (i.e. if you have a 100Mb connection and only get 70Mb out = of it, you probably won't notice unless you go looking) >=20 > Violent agreement. But note that with AAL5=E2=80=99s rule to = always use an integer number of ATM cells per user packet the required = bandwidth sacrifice to statically cover the worst case gets ludicrous = (theoretical worst case: requiring 2 53 byte ATM cells for on 49 Byte = data packet: 100 * 49 / (53 * 2) =3D 46.2% and this is on top of any = potential unaccounted overhead inside the 49 Byte packet). Luckily the = ATM padding issue is not as severe for bigger packets=E2=80=A6 but still = to statically fully solve modem/dslam bufferbloat the required bandwidth = sacrifice seems excessive=E2=80=A6 But again you are right, there might = be users who do not mind to go to this length. For this reason I = occasionally recommend to start the bandwidth at 50% to certainly rule = out overhead/encapsulation accounting issues (mind you take 50% as = starting point from which to ramp up=E2=80=A6) >=20 > Best Regards > Sebastian. >=20 >=20 > > > > David Lang >=20 >=20