From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr0-x231.google.com (mail-wr0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AA323B2A3 for ; Mon, 1 May 2017 07:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x231.google.com with SMTP id w50so62505274wrc.0 for ; Mon, 01 May 2017 04:32:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wk0jzj3ja8IrdN27abKjVWEwjQQe6c11R6JmFaupVFQ=; b=nGFpg3o0HPYNBJf8s8gwm5BlfMflm2D7ipgP021VKS9PwkQ+xYWmZlVNw3abhS1G3L mgzqE9hBQZmu2zN8n9JxFDBmrmv/GK342o7rRIMFxracebvrVwJaptkY3VDvMYw8qI+O U5QDmjmt6Ay9RNnwTRE3M3LeP+ARMoSzoWc7+8haS1IK7AEVzeBAoHfh9pPTIIsgrdM+ wbAmgjkRsOnk/Y3MN7yiZjWo2KwisG9QoIFLEWdBNGJB0RxWnJpRw7IO2EDAmOZq+Nb0 7pnsm1Iv465I4iEKEWn1k5bUVe2kyQghuc2/ZnSlNhOUiGmnXMleZz4illdpvP8o5zXI 43XQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wk0jzj3ja8IrdN27abKjVWEwjQQe6c11R6JmFaupVFQ=; b=rf/aY4fCrko4jo3M9qWu2pSNEBxfqR4KsR3AHyxUPoakJhqLmkQOXm+s03beL3z6eq /NyFdbqZfxYVkFz1n2Hd+XAkbgM6Qd3RFQ4SoUjdbvE+7YKVyX8GOCP5QDbuqhw6eceG p4Q/R5HTsx3eEq2pkIsGeA5Afa6ri7xXANdI3tG9CARpcwmnEmAdOoZiaVUxtXRef4Z/ 0GiR6jRte9VZeWhHDdlK/ALx7AWgUE5i0e8Z67yvaRcNFuUZIXjoTmAEbx5EcG4KvbxR Agpm+NPNbCEXZJYlhMbCtPFr7b8tXqW7f2MvYEM9l8iHF3AXMKCavHGEvzfDnK4nwkXV j/sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/4GWZ023NgKkaL7DdnkwsfZwerq9hlrMvM47loUsGWL5Wurec8h GwJ0kvEEh9p7tQ== X-Received: by 10.223.155.2 with SMTP id b2mr15909882wrc.87.1493638361079; Mon, 01 May 2017 04:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (185.182.7.51.dyn.plus.net. [51.7.182.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p22sm6030853wmi.18.2017.05.01.04.32.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 May 2017 04:32:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Dendari Marini , Benjamin Cronce Cc: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <0BA3EE91-C5BC-4155-9D5D-D15D34490A1A@gmx.de> <00DDAA0B-7D99-489B-BA2D-1F20289409B3@gmx.de> <2FFBF256-2932-4FC7-AD1F-0D7CEE111809@gmx.de> <3fbfd0ee-7b41-0f83-8b44-ce7eed6a0562@gmail.com> <09DB0D8E-F63C-4126-8608-9EACDE99D2F1@gmail.com> From: Andy Furniss Message-ID: <8d2720cb-fd26-0ed8-5e59-c9a062384966@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 12:32:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/54.0 SeaMonkey/2.51a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Cake] Getting Cake to work better with Steam and similar applications X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 11:32:42 -0000 Dendari Marini wrote: >> What's your RTT(ping) to the different services, like Steam and >> Windows Update? Some ISPs have local CDNs that can give incredibly >> low latency relative to the provisioned bandwidth, which can cause >> bad things to happen with TCP. > I tried Battle.net and Steam (manually starting a Windows Update is > rather difficult) and it seems Battle.net servers are closer > compared to the Steam ones (and as I said I don't have the same > issues with Battle.net). Well it seems distance is important for BBR. It seems to have a design whereby your rtt to the server determines how badly it will bork your latency. Unlike cubic it doesn't take loss/ecn as a hint to get out of its exponential phase, which is IMHO not a friendly thing to do, I mean didn't they think people have to share connections :-( Playing with a sim, something like dash that grabs a meg waits then gets another with a new connection needs crazy amount of back off to avoid borking latency every chunk. The amount of disruption getting worse the higher the RTT of the TCP. If you don't have a close CDN plus a low latency DSL gaming is not going to be nice sharing with repeatedly starting up bbr. With constant download muti-thread sims - like steam, there is sometimes a case where every 10 seconds there will be a spike as bbr does probes. This doesn't happen as much with staggered starts for the TCPs. It does happen with single connections. By default cake uses rtt parameter of 100ms - this seems to cause excessive drops/marks causing upstream bandwidth issues on a connection like yours. Increasing to say 300 reduces drops/marks but does make some latency spikes a bit worse. In summary BBR if you are not close to the server is a nightmare to shape for latency on ingress. I am testing with 40ms rtt, which I don't thing is excessive. Where I live, luckily youtube/steam are only 8ms and things are a lot nicer when emulating that.