From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2080.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D38A3B29E for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 13:54:15 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=IrpFmA1M2uG/qvFjv60PQQPLeNP6vOX8i+VFvOgQ0V9ff5MEkSRiy/iMd+zWREnR/Q8cdQO2QEBB9qp9Zze+dH0kZmgREhYCzFDoH+F6SzQTezGeqVkmgyLWo0MO6Go14yRqTSyOc6y5inceECfXNfyjBrimKdpfkCHG6MTJ6rlskhag4jxBVZNPghzzGQsNzqUZSUSa4Z+oANBJkc7AcEdesQOGF31rHqEsk3CNeBaBEW3AoF6dbNVKCGY+RMXWIjywsAg/ySTWz6YzammufMTBmISr0PISzvGg9GZxy/Oh9K0y1yjUgsdg0X8pCrcmuBMl41/VjmM5QLFaNYJodQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ywzqq4hR2VTj3giI/j5JqV+RBzyz6m+YNGgdZL3oEZQ=; b=TaSfXI9v0fy70APWfSjLSMCA8Ovn70M/Ow9489tHJmhHnv+wFNdhthTPWtMK6jK7AMNYCaXISPDO3GMDYACRLUexEKe4YZlYM+yPgpVvY/o0csPS88/51e7+KEqEbIfCft1qWZpHal/N4gI30vN6XbXvqxP8hQwrLyEg/UBc2LT7AUopub9PIjovnO+9o2bAKcd0RQjev6J45KekaCAdLhdjkn7r7XuOma3rnBQp1JUXD2PLw6jwJrQ+nmSr/SyfdADUja5KEr6O2F+NX4cxIYAoMj5ANwrdPmaEk+t2zbvek2LpALE0Lm5UvVxhp5wS12CTDTcm52hc5tOWyGWZqw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=darbyshire-bryant.me.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=darbyshire-bryant.me.uk; dkim=pass header.d=darbyshire-bryant.me.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=darbyshire-bryant.me.uk; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ywzqq4hR2VTj3giI/j5JqV+RBzyz6m+YNGgdZL3oEZQ=; b=dwxoP2N0yWgTwyurNUYinjyv+Vob/e4nRXoYNtWKLmUidDd9BVEbtKu0DcFAiUSlvKl/VNp9n04Vkzn2Qcu3W4MXan0kNRc88MSQWJoA/lckgtbzuBRVbrVTRZYH4m4Lo2HIt1l6U8sVmav1hQKretOZC2549tVtQKiykTVPGTQ= Received: from VI1PR03MB4575.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:59::12) by VI1PR0302MB2702.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:e3::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3216.22; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:54:13 +0000 Received: from VI1PR03MB4575.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dcff:4b45:98e6:d823]) by VI1PR03MB4575.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dcff:4b45:98e6:d823%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3216.026; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:54:12 +0000 From: Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant To: "David P. Reed" CC: Cake List Thread-Topic: [Cake] diffserv3 vs diffserv4 Thread-Index: AQHWYdMP82xlrjF1cECorjGMH4SWNqkW/9mAgAEU0YCAAH8tgIAAAbSA Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:54:12 +0000 Message-ID: <94003145-2031-454F-8F76-38C153DDFA08@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> References: <0CCA78BD-201C-4668-A013-24A3F6F4EC87@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <1595699283.358416190@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1595699283.358416190@apps.rackspace.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) authentication-results: deepplum.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;deepplum.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=darbyshire-bryant.me.uk; x-originating-ip: [193.240.142.132] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f9a9e716-927c-4577-1364-08d830c3bd8b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1PR0302MB2702: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:274; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: GKYGzrWi5XZ3jywLnKwmTFZDuczeZHgetptrd52LxmEOHC5YJl0MVA6kXFF+hr6hPdTYjwPSV3x0nWUEcrmc+Zlp4eeI0xTgg36PIzWw7fymqd0KksmslU3hJr/WT6NQMQY1g8tTjVobfBYNmYku/l8gNLe4OP172riUmHemIrToQsR6rWtpM6HLRhAOWiPReTre+yPKNlDdijztIO4lcbhHJBIfxPaiXo44BiJJH703WlQ6Er848Sb2XE12BO2tzDJfoY/d3/tA95sHPLSWLGRAkUY/x0agJ1Dh5jv62WdJ/8YcUrPmUfQ1naj4PIQciondOZZZY347XTedTMyWwPVRnB6bI+q2OeAfXn6Ntv9BJCxcOY3BGa2XmnuEhD7h7+wyWGZKw9PdQHkiz5AJ0Q== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR03MB4575.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(366004)(346002)(376002)(39830400003)(396003)(136003)(2906002)(6916009)(6486002)(76116006)(66946007)(91956017)(86362001)(83380400001)(5660300002)(71200400001)(36756003)(508600001)(53546011)(26005)(99936003)(966005)(4326008)(186003)(6506007)(66574015)(316002)(66446008)(2616005)(33656002)(66476007)(66616009)(66556008)(8676002)(64756008)(6512007)(8936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_54C367ED-5513-4ED2-9E08-BD4CF17A129D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: darbyshire-bryant.me.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR03MB4575.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f9a9e716-927c-4577-1364-08d830c3bd8b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Jul 2020 17:54:12.6451 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9151708b-c553-406f-8e56-694f435154a4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ojnqYUyl+ZtT05LpgxsN3FqKaH/LmbTGvnTvC9p+9H0RoFY1lzHAQRnx3LzOeoLObBthEpBMqEJjHFugyVqxr6rqtT4yGKCfNL4GOsFuXO8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0302MB2702 Subject: Re: [Cake] diffserv3 vs diffserv4 X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:54:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_54C367ED-5513-4ED2-9E08-BD4CF17A129D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I didn=E2=80=99t sign up for this abuse. Bellhead eh? Well f**k off! I=E2=80=99ve had enough - bye. > On 25 Jul 2020, at 18:48, David P. Reed wrote: >=20 > This idea (dividing the link rate capacity, since "bandwidth" is an = incorrect term not to be promulgated), is absurd, but typical of = "bellhead" thinking. >=20 > Per packet latency is the key control variable, even for TCP. That's = because capacity/rate is not controllable by routers, but by routing in = a general Internet situation. >=20 > Latency is controlled by queuing delay in a packet network, not = bitrate. And in mixed traffic, which after all is why traffic is = classified in the first place, by its characteristics and response to = increased latency end-to-end, is the core "control" for the internetwork = as a whole. >=20 > So, by promoting thinking about "bandwidth" a whole sequence of = misformulations of network management is embedded into the thinking of = those designing queue management algorithms. >=20 > And make no mistake, queue management is the ONLY knob other than = sending different packets on different routes that one has for routers. >=20 > I don't know who proposed this fractional division, but it is clearly = a bellhead-influenced thinker who thinks all protocols are CBR flows = like in the old phone system. >=20 > But almost no flows in the internet are CBR flows! File transfers are = not, streaming TV is not, web ttraffic is not, game traffic is not. Only = non-statistically multiplexed real-time telephony and *some* video = conferencing is CBR. >=20 > Yet this bizarre idea of dividing "bandwidth" among all categories of = flows pops up. Probably from employees of phone companies or phone = equipment suppliers. Or folks who went to Uni and were trained in = "communications" by former phone engineers. >=20 > Latency, latency, latency. Queue delay, queue delay, queue delay. Not = link speed! Change your brains. >=20 > It's hard fo fight this bellhead crowd (or the bellheadedness in your = own thinking) but think about packets and queues instead. >=20 > My good friend Len Kleinrock didn't invent "Bandwidth Theory"! He = invented Queueing Theory. For a reason. >=20 > On Saturday, July 25, 2020 6:12am, "Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant" = said: >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cake mailing list > > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake > > > > > > > On 24 Jul 2020, at 18:42, Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > The move from diffserv4 to diffserv5 WAS about de-prioritization. > > > > It was also about minimum bandwidth allocations: > > > > LE: 1/64th > > BK: 1/16th > > BE: 1/1 > > VI: 1/2 > > VO: 1/4 > > > > So worst case, best effort should get 11/64ths in the extreme case = of all other > > tins in use. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Kevin D-B > > > > gpg: 012C ACB2 28C6 C53E 9775 9123 B3A2 389B 9DE2 334A > > > > Cheers, Kevin D-B gpg: 012C ACB2 28C6 C53E 9775 9123 B3A2 389B 9DE2 334A --Apple-Mail=_54C367ED-5513-4ED2-9E08-BD4CF17A129D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEASyssijGxT6XdZEjs6I4m53iM0oFAl8cccEACgkQs6I4m53i M0qv9xAAyVdxhSFvdPVviFxA2kt8e0SvH5vPn1PdI6WBr8yqIiNEZHy6Iwe4YnuH 9WiLH2Q8Vg11pOtX/oiNyHVsl+FYKXkAqpDpe2/igolW80c+NR3I1TjIzngQLgjf r6qq0TdaxXDbi8D2B5sVbd9MWD+8hLiRDmvTy0EcAorVO+dQcDxfv7vm3tvrBOlO qnOZc3ZQDvBOAmG7o1XeIY6ZaBhbiEWZLnZ+FIK1j4xkI8qn+KQc94BSU1Hv+rfw UhCOs2Sa9VsFqSeadvBYNYxT9ZQv5tIMDqqq0ypFZ8Pd5E5uNaj7thomxikmevC1 1wQgb3OWIUWdUlsn9FSYMk6E8xjVHtllK9IE8YwgpHi8YKs3PCY3hPCa8g+3HATh dimPnd2WjQAXISvf2cbZks7OUGfirpsLELvgdmhnyhV8IT2lXJa/YZJR6Ju49+xB i21/2bFvMhJLXBGMdKCJRsVQ9LwqN11VkQV7LYwAvXDqd7JJe9tGW0Ll9YFse0Zc jtmRIDjcct+QxUs3DqFXyLdfoLmHX4MD7rqOao3rSxfTlAGFD6zXYtFYo9nXP+tr ll8rVQsQs9dZBtrDeTis+aL3YjamHBJPhv2LotMIza+Iu9QdYkAHIsla5MXVjM0r wtSbUSLsM4+e0hJix5Plj3488pZBAPh8CNFbaE9WLAqQjCw1MJ8= =qBfk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_54C367ED-5513-4ED2-9E08-BD4CF17A129D--