From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr0-x234.google.com (mail-wr0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E9A63B29E for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2017 04:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x234.google.com with SMTP id o21so22586483wrb.2 for ; Thu, 06 Apr 2017 01:48:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=c+ZnlnDKxP+G0NIYxPAAS7k+mykiNLFi439rVE5dvh4=; b=UGJPgNtUPa/5VbU2ulLEkNMb2gS6gm+0o8iXBkIZOqVnR2OVR+50WFeb6P0nzX1xgY w6WVyAU2+z2dVUv57rGVYmeu5cyKOM33kBjq+vehecvkPA7L1I4aAvnpSgp3KFAwoQx0 U7sxlVMbf+lb+cS9sDMIEnLINPpghUrGUqlNb4N4h8Y/6IMeNre2e4DjvQBb6N2qfsWr BokxIbXtVYeAB8ZkV6jwFtzmmt5cSDeWry609B9JzUblkGsIzMN45zjnkuu+ftE15Y9h JQIP5QJS6HWoiymqvDOpcIYPRNASTSgnmmwHPoS5F4l1oKZwLsjlXm6UZXVhcf8un4r3 EsKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=c+ZnlnDKxP+G0NIYxPAAS7k+mykiNLFi439rVE5dvh4=; b=iPHo1Sv5yQbFr7Xkb0NjChbYTDHqu7fwqgCSl4zbmGnZ93+PA1BcKvHeCOUDKiA3ul vgAYWLHMKP92/hI5EmzU8hx0zsYiVXcr61lhANihm8RHEF5Cmyl7b9nicrIa0GF5vJue nxfEUuFyWgIYjrs+TGrbJHM9ScdC9Os/vC4gRSieKAWAbNSc5d3stcpx8sxmFrdzjop1 55lLOSpZaVGY50m+azVlWyQzzEOI/mZndI3m+N25vMlSAzSayTu4Q/3SHypJuo6w7+XM Sfd0ll7/84IZ8EsTdduOLbs2wYQ8ma1GZfaMH1VwY9ppmuKLe0m7tWseLXbokKkyeFzU AURA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3ChN52YPZlv85RIKmtZ937SdA1d5vU4DaaJ0sNQzXZ+cfO/LM7lLSl1VhlIwHDrQ== X-Received: by 10.223.157.11 with SMTP id k11mr29339734wre.28.1491468524935; Thu, 06 Apr 2017 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.72.0.130] (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.99.119.68]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o66sm1533289wmg.33.2017.04.06.01.48.43 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Apr 2017 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Pete Heist In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:48:43 +0200 Cc: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2FD59D30-3102-4A3E-A38E-050E438DABF0@gmail.com> To: David Lang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Subject: Re: [Cake] flow isolation for ISPs X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 08:48:46 -0000 > On Apr 6, 2017, at 10:39 AM, David Lang wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 6 Apr 2017, Pete Heist wrote: >=20 >> Suppose there is a cooperative ISP that has some members who access = the network through a single device (like a router with NAT), while = others use multiple devices and leave routing to the ISPs routers. (No = need to suppose, actually.) >>=20 >> There=E2=80=99s fairness at the IP address level (currently with = esfq, maybe soon with Cake), but it's not fair that members with = multiple devices effectively get one hash bucket per device, so if you = have more devices connected at once, you win. There is a table of member = ID to a list of MAC addresses for the member, so if there could somehow = be fairness based on that table and by MAC address, that could solve it, = but I don=E2=80=99t see how it could be implemented. >=20 > well, if the congested link is not the last-mile link to a user, the = right answer is probably to increase the capacity of the link, and = fairness issues would be a temporary thing until the link was upgraded. >=20 > remember that the fairness is a means to an end, good reponsive = service. As long as the result is responsive for all users, a bit of = unfairness is acceptable. It=E2=80=99s a good point, but for a non-profit cooperative WISP, each = hardware upgrade/installation can be a decision. In some locations and = times there=E2=80=99s congestion in the backhaul, in others not. So = it=E2=80=99s not always practical in this case to solve it by adding = more hardware=E2=80=A6