From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A39773B29D; Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 29JKiJjp059428; Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:44:20 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=ZcK0zJZAIc06ugi8lc7f0L8yMdT7xrEgiLCVAfT+AxY=; b=JCcjZ5pFLmChHj8tVYTA95WAe8TqB6llHuHn7Sz1oZVVUlbOWQWOaAXC+91yTI6eWt3d uGNg2toEQuJqQBejyu8jQS1te4SEQMJP/i13o6qTMttVgpUZQmhsvu+shSvak2MposN/ 2EnbzzVBlBnJMfajpS+8e9OMy0x63Scp1f0bFVWpalnD772oLDQj3yErzMvbX1mq91FU TbHk7/D3rvlWHar31UfQEdM01AUdypCHhZhsvOe2MizOv0lnl8yBuua9g9/a1Fj5uW9B Un4huQokp+sVo2OnwiBwENCIgxZaJzYHFd48F+SVNaLLqzkKxe8n5XYvaOKu0n2vDc96 xg== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 3k7uh2qh56-6 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:44:20 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.19.20220711 64bit (built Jul 11 2022)) with ESMTPS id <0RK000Y99PLVSPE0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.19.20220711 64bit (built Jul 11 2022)) id <0RK000800PDZ5L00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:44:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 762a9e81ab1774e425bcb42b3bcb8505 X-Va-E-CD: 7b79535e0e2c706cb521c16087105ecb X-Va-R-CD: b29d391f6d13ba1bafb01998e95aa6b7 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 062715c5-3340-4fa9-9ab3-bf3785191c99 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 762a9e81ab1774e425bcb42b3bcb8505 X-V-E-CD: 7b79535e0e2c706cb521c16087105ecb X-V-R-CD: b29d391f6d13ba1bafb01998e95aa6b7 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: df580310-9b30-44ff-8472-d5e3a9972d51 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.545, 18.0.895 definitions=2022-10-19_12:2022-10-19, 2022-10-19 signatures=0 Received: from [17.11.94.27] (unknown [17.11.94.27]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.19.20220711 64bit (built Jul 11 2022)) with ESMTPSA id <0RK000MNRPLUTH00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Cc: Rpm , bloat , Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.545, 18.0.895 definitions=2022-10-19_12:2022-10-19, 2022-10-19 signatures=0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 18:18:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 20:44:21 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:44:18 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 20:44:21 -0000 On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire = wrote: > Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. I feel it is not an especially profound insight to observe that, = =E2=80=9Cpeople don=E2=80=99t like waiting in line.=E2=80=9D The = conclusion, =E2=80=9Ctherefore privileged people should get to go to the = front,=E2=80=9D describes an airport first class checkin counter, Disney = Fastpass, and countless other analogies from everyday life, all of which = are the wrong solution for packets in a network. > I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting = everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. Which is why starting with a bad analogy (people waiting in a grocery = store) inevitably leads to bad conclusions. If we want to struggle to make the grocery store analogy work, perhaps = we show people checking some grocery store app on their smartphone = before they leave home, and if they see that a long line is beginning to = form they wait until later, when the line is shorter. The challenge is = not how to deal with a long queue when it=E2=80=99s there, it is how to = avoid a long queue in the first place. > Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple = checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory = itself. I disagree. You are describing the =E2=80=9CFQ=E2=80=9D part of = FQ_CoDel. It=E2=80=99s the =E2=80=9CCoDel=E2=80=9D part of FQ_CoDel that = solves bufferbloat. FQ has been around for a long time, and at best it = partially masked the effects of bufferbloat. Having more queues does not = solve bufferbloat. Managing the queue(s) better solves bufferbloat. > I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better = string of explanations, explaining >=20 > - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at = all". That is the kind of thing I had in mind. Or a similar quote from The = Matrix. While everyone is debating ways to live with long queues, the = guru asks, =E2=80=9CWhat if there were no queues?=E2=80=9D That is the = =E2=80=9Cmind blown=E2=80=9D realization. Stuart Cheshire