From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4CCF3B2A4; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 23:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id l16-20020a05600c4f1000b003c6c0d2a445so11345358wmq.4; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:15:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=jWhMWvqcOzpmPj1es5xYA+LCZ039nt+C2BHFkV1DLxk=; b=J6BR2IlwhMAwUZF4KmgwlaEpLQhDe8SlS2TWEHiWj24+LYF8AjPOXFDQlM3eYl4TYT 9D1svZOuXQj8CzauQEYilMFDGpsFeg2CMNqAVz3zNWZqwyAW5HNtsQpA1fD/AP8jzcX/ 9hFKTakwsKL4F9xNYmDvhNmJfVVCI7cNS3g4owLlFCigoSMQmsTxeMo1MkMoGk/uBVz5 faJJ7lAk1OyhIWztAoojCifDKlohU0VrNt9Z27kBfkZ46h6PJs/JeUrtFkjYkQOx99qF qRdk+ryCKGsa1/FR5gG9S2uBPaGLe7lQMqaoQ3LLMTNcYsK9uKncuZCkNb8fbGeSIBE3 YI2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jWhMWvqcOzpmPj1es5xYA+LCZ039nt+C2BHFkV1DLxk=; b=TXMmXovUOgtDOgJl4yQL1oDntfk7uCTCBW7sVJPkkNvd16BYqIS3hZxRVfNPEvb63V fdbyX29sennRPLcTP2kXoTQln1HQZpigZ29B0QqiYrs7UxK7JI+r/n18m1+ced2tgcKx smVeEZaTuDKhMa1VwbNtNHvCRhNQ59XwVa7YXZLXarcaEN+OcWwfoWcxdkGV5gZbK0B4 2XKW9qw29DscrRqy5HLYhm8kE20d0DkOEbpPfmFoZLAK8ZVQc7/NtzwW1depVDm/6Umi 9BE2NXEgaec8+gYB3frU7WDgY6DCoD4LdQKFXly3+1ANLtXrYcEsDvgBDA+H//mDxnhi 3dWw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3F4+fvHbBYpUjD83rqwqaJzuZd4mtWUzv5ueKTuHQsBBqd71Mu 335PmKQfnQGtL6No/7fsGUufshK89mOukHbb5AA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7KQf1S98wPAIxvpKYW/QmjEytQkZsmhHuaZWTWg9WMrMp4CZ04fmRvltFGhn2zYFJaMbae15m29mYRJUAR3Kk= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c3c4:0:b0:3c4:785a:36d7 with SMTP id t4-20020a7bc3c4000000b003c4785a36d7mr21700094wmj.138.1666062935277; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:15:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:15:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Sina Khanifar Cc: Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Rpm , Stuart Cheshire , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Cake] A quick report from the WISPA conference X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 03:15:36 -0000 On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar wrote: > > Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We'v= e been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing some= thing around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test than= ever before, which has been fun! Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto site for many now. I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over time, as to how much better the problem is getting? And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? ... I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6 product. A keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with waveform results on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless vendor demo'd privately to me their flent results before/after cake on their next-gen radios... and people dissed tarana without me prompting for their bad bufferbloat... and the best thing of all that happened to me was... besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked. "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?" And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got cake." "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently. They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet card they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a great, convincing pitch... ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert after= . ... The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radios to drive the plan enforcement better (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about the... physics. So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their network improve that way also. I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?) I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference? > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire wro= te: >> > >> > On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast wrote: >> > >> > > This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to ge= t in touch with the ifxit folk? >> > > >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI >> > >> > I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that i= t repeats all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the stan= dard terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the= =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the li= ne, angering everyone behind them=E2=80=9D. >> >> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. >> >> > >> > Some quotes from the video: >> > >> > > it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line= and just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but they= =E2=80=99re rudely refusing >> >> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting >> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. >> >> > > to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a work= er saw you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of= the line or opens up an express lane just for you >> >> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple >> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory >> itself. >> >> > >> > The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the= same failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three decades= . >> >> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, >> disses gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an >> accurate test*, and then to the ideas and products that *actually >> work* with "smart queueing", with a screenshot of the most common >> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and >> cake *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, >> openwrt. >> >> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly >> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to >> take the test, >> there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, >> which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for >> example, a nanog conference. >> >> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, >> without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it >> more right now! >> >> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've >> tried to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and >> now "cake" are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by >> asking for them, It's certainly working out better and better for >> evenroute, firewalla, ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in >> questions about this on various user forums. >> >> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing >> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - >> >> > Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal= person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in = grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to bufferbloat.= The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged then you get= to =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The solution to buffer= bloat is that there is no line! >> >> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better >> string of explanations, explaining >> >> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all"= . >> >> > >> > With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are indepen= dent and not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to = generate backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to= form. The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to = prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue an= d then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service than a= ll the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like before= . >> >> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the >> other side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely >> signalling rather than timely backpressure? >> >> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), >> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... >> >> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most >> important things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they >> benefit the most for >> fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in >> cake + qosify. >> >> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would >> like another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Stuart Cheshire >> > >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666= 65607352320-FXtz >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC