From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com (mail-qt0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4032D3BA8E for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id m13-v6so8405860qth.1 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:09:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vMUbFqGJlWfLTGHkKj+kJaHPkKYugPzrv+z52RyF24M=; b=Yo2P9G3nzLqCzZ9mkvkJJasbo9306BfmJzh7+A48Fe4Y3XwOY04X7xLxkwxNT/3VKS Wx8eaHEIcZE4VX1uE3pey/vDwARCe2ffu+JPnEotxjUsy5M3BIowyPMEKeTa4PqntZ3m CbtXghvhvkMgX0ByFtDb+Juq7OOVKh8bypb45pA234P038xBiVpFJ6SK5gy8z3fnRQWw 4nMb1DVTUskk2KxgAp3YzOAbSGZiAB1uU2YOC9fPnsORZLMu/wGcBKKgXnSEOKxYs7ue 1dKkMEP5/AZNuEEhcIMpz4m+CW5PjlBVKgnC5T9YgIZPOGxHWujIzKwun8WBqvCUv42u XCtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vMUbFqGJlWfLTGHkKj+kJaHPkKYugPzrv+z52RyF24M=; b=Zgn5zxYy6n4kN5hJ8Q8Z2+ZkzSgAH/lYeGv/lTm8yHVGDxIGCXj+FR1WvIKk7wVSp9 9AftOZKIKcmSrdDOYjF6sdFcjKLOhcpnoZCw0I2Dl7QTBhP3vepSLYCseCHAiOumOtCQ M6tRHCubg6lD5Qk4DDaDS8DWdk55WzHGlND+QVI+yX39ZBE22HNWciWMzF96yM3kYqw8 q9YmmBF7v1xFC1sLqCXavBi0HjtzktgZn2YynbrYvD8b24LfztiCO90LkTQATHnX+LAg ZtwLRXoEf+RdGMs8+URcbGawKsaU10XLhVhzuplO0OGr5Bw/aAdJqXD2Zksu2YZKsJEF 1CBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEdo6M/RPfwCSUWyDRYmblZ/e9Te7etKV0X0mETUePTSLt0gOxq lJ3gSy7D0v3ccYnLyJm5o3rlBBXMJu9ZB+tJNwqymsWt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfdjfuHeVv6phdayfB6jiwThV8ONixpjI5scExRk8sGfYOUPJJfTXsTalujF7gqlN+LImoPI+GbWBS89NrFRIM= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9e5a:: with SMTP id z26-v6mr10064665qve.15.1532804945777; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:09:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1357421162.31089.1531812291583@webmail.strato.de> <1c323544b3076c0ab31b887d6113f25f572e41ae.camel@coverfire.com> <87woth28rw.fsf@toke.dk> <87tvol1z6h.fsf@toke.dk> <8980FA6C-508B-43E1-8C23-6EBC4A10499A@heistp.net> <842E73E8-368B-4F53-9A6C-31C10420536E@heistp.net> <8BDEED8F-3DDC-4CE2-9E56-8B0FD9CD6C04@heistp.net> In-Reply-To: <8BDEED8F-3DDC-4CE2-9E56-8B0FD9CD6C04@heistp.net> From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:09:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: Pete Heist Cc: Cake List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] isp economics X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 19:09:06 -0000 On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 11:39 AM Pete Heist wrote: > > > On Jul 28, 2018, at 7:32 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > > Exactly. Many members, including myself, are limited by our CPE links dur= ing off hours, and by the backhaul during high traffic hours. > > > 3 items > > 1) Co-locating some essential services (like netflix) might be of help. > > > That=E2=80=99s a good idea, will bring that up with the admins. > > Netflix is here now, but many folks seem to use =E2=80=9CO2 TV Air=E2=80= =9D, which is a way to watch ordinary cable packages over any Internet conn= ection (not just from O2). SD streams are 3Mbit and HD 6Mbit. Weirdly, they= don=E2=80=99t pace out their data but there=E2=80=99s a characteristic =E2= =80=9Cpulsing=E2=80=9D of the streams every 5 seconds that when I see it on= the router's throughput graph I know, yep, that=E2=80=99s O2 TV. I=E2=80= =99ll find out if their on-demand stuff has such a co-location option. thats basically how DASH traffic works. The video client probes for extra bandwidth every 10 seconds. If it succeeds it switches over to the higher rate flow. this was good: https://reproducingnetworkresearch.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/= cs244-17-confused-timid-and-unstable-picking-a-video-streaming-rate-is-hard= / bbr exists because of this behavior also. > https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/ > > 2) If the members voted for more backhaul, the costs are understandable= =E2=80=A6 > > > Backhaul upgrades are coming into focus gradually, and upgrading those AL= IX boxes which are tanks but...tanks. > > I think some of the higher costs come from physical installations / place= ment rights. Surprising what towers can cost. > > 3) Philosophically I vastly prefer the concept of "everyone sharing > the network", rather than rate plans, to create some market tension as > to the available bandwidth at any given time of day. > > > Agree wholeheartedly. Rate limiting members isn=E2=80=99t necessary for a= non-profit (no profit motive) and especially if we can get fairness right,= there=E2=80=99s no technical reason to do it that I know of either. > > ubnt did add at least airtime fairness to airos a year or two back. It > was not on by default. Their "TDMA" qos system was this insane mess of > sfq rules when I tore it apart.... 8 years back. > > > I don=E2=80=99t know what they=E2=80=99re doing in their newer AC stuff, = but I'm surprised by what appears to be ~6-8ms latency under load on the Na= noStation 5 AC Loco=E2=80=99s I got for the camp=E2=80=99s backhaul. Is it = really that good? This is in contrast to the 50+ms I see with rrul_be on th= e NanoStation M5 (without controlling the queue). This test is straight AP = to AP though, with probably 1 flow up and 1 down plus ping, so I want to ge= t 2-4 more of these and do rrul_be through the Ethernet ports, to get more = flows and UDP, and see how it looks then. > > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-669-226-2619