From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3438C3B29D for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id x2so13676243ilp.13 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:44:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ub1SN4U9fJjfDYJfPxGmCM57d/Lc+BhDLy3QvIy3U+8=; b=Izs21m1SY1xoJ79VGM3taEsyUjrNI+dfHZcZBexnWo4RrG/LYRfG40YpNtqMbj9w4Q 3t0cLDWXagnP9vOevgYkci0FoPA1IG8NQUE8dZ4wfJnHo1EedCcMPu4SS88Wjefm6CE9 h30JZs/c3WSZcy4RVPmRkNOLrRNphVMlUZgohsJZpn+fDDAJozgrGAP5SOlNXbPz1RiY oFZ6k4CbxEkijDwhkjq/EjVVs3wObQeEua70HxzMv+kcQ2GuN+YZ9I7FJkw/1AQ9Uol+ W5vuJbMvVIU18k9ApNKmv33/pl9fhV8O6QKYPFpj8MfMVGkSJVIm4q13t56R9PiwHHzi CloQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ub1SN4U9fJjfDYJfPxGmCM57d/Lc+BhDLy3QvIy3U+8=; b=nxLRkUtDdUnAXhZXIHcV5nOM3uRPeingk5AwfB3NbSr5xYyuXnfYvficHzV0+1WqS9 WUT6uXoKpTgairqleIn6CpzdUz6laiNoLcujM3HAgNJtkwTdSaOnbHjxnHMuP1pOCS/W hQDNSMH7iTrNnBuc/5frlvG5eF7Fm/Z0E3+nkmUu3+scTH+DHP87aUKadoFXU4ffaJ0d Ap/m+meYE6TUYhoSLe01wwjndqDxPtfZVoMZ8bsq+QaTVrAVP3N6Y9XszyrrCi2jRiKa v5UO9z8SrrDnOVbB/jjbSwhtV9Kci2UiV4krMXKHjX2QtzKRDREg7taNWCwdAtqEynVF pgfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYM4BNbBBy0b6eb0bakVwAbabAsE5US89CLD/GZJu93uXENzKBs 5ph67yKie/SwCxC6NuboVuSeECuZVcpVOPb82zU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJAZL+8b32PcHai2nVndKGNq7eyPJVGQPM17DglVzzawhzaHnfOxCUqknFaTU/KD4kigGyMs3V4TBMUw++82kc= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8e50:: with SMTP id k16mr24681283ilh.45.1587509052658; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <75FEC2D9-BFC8-4FA2-A972-D11A823C5528@gmail.com> <603DFF79-D0C0-41BD-A2FB-E40B95A9CBB0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <603DFF79-D0C0-41BD-A2FB-E40B95A9CBB0@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:44:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: Thibaut , Cake List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] Advantages to tightly tuning latency X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:44:13 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:33 PM Jonathan Morton wro= te: > > > On 22 Apr, 2020, at 1:25 am, Thibaut wrote: > > > > My curiosity is piqued. Can you elaborate on this? What does free.fr do= ? > > They're a large French ISP. They made their own CPE devices, and debloat= ed both them and their network quite a while ago. In that sense, at least,= they're a model for others to follow - but few have. > > - Jonathan Morton they are one of the few ISPs that insisted on getting full source code to their DSL stack, and retained the chops to be able to modify it. I really admire their revolution v6 product. First introduced in 2010, it's been continuously updated, did ipv6 at the outset, got fq_codel when it first came out, and they update the kernel regularly. All kinds of great features on it, and ecn is enabled by default for those also (things like samba). over 3 million boxes now I hear.... with <1ms of delay in the dsl driver, they don't need to shape, they just run at line rate using three tiers of DRR that look a lot like cake. They shared their config with me, and before I lost heart for future internet drafts, I'd stuck it here: https://github.com/dtaht/bufferbloat-rfcs/blob/master/home_gateway_queue_ma= nagement/middle.mkd Occasionally they share some data with me. Sometimes I wish I lived in paris just so I could have good internet! (their fiber offering is reasonably buffered (not fq_codeled) and the wifi... maybe I can get them to talk about what they did) When free.fr shipped fq_codel 2 months after we finalized it, I figured the rest of the world was only months behind. How hard is it to add 50 lines of BQL oriented code to a DSL firmware? --=20 Make Music, Not War Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-435-0729