From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt0-x244.google.com (mail-qt0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 553883BA8E for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 23:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x244.google.com with SMTP id d3-v6so1690876qto.1 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:43:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bFDSR2RHoKkudBtAmr2xfq6UZ+6lNFWFoi8QtAIq9z8=; b=M4S3stBSG74jjNLTc5cOTYO+QnCR6KsEbTP7t6tTlANnOfYoTLpfk39w/y53SPDhi4 qk41/TPhHHgC6ktSz9P5T0ApVBjP5aY721sFSoNmIUw5wkfe0D6QsPqieL51xkbxBa6f yjyrVXbim6u7hjJij6oRXnJaFCATj/16LBQYB+MxqqksJPaXfVGGxA9sGyYLkv2yAkhy iXEKSyRsIznvWDdUEWRLnGdOaGSF/PpHQLZ/VPwoHGSdqbim67je2WrOcvegiZKmrGPJ kZxHTcmSbKV/zHezlh3OQmW1E9zx2JEgfnACLSvdsh8dB3ABzIC5LOY8hNur/oniGiTB AzYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bFDSR2RHoKkudBtAmr2xfq6UZ+6lNFWFoi8QtAIq9z8=; b=EzdZtbRadl4LoT8wE71Dfdjzlu+moOMvdh36HZCtIgn8Jzal7lQDWSyiJrFfFN0gQa D0Huab2SDc1LLidNNjmVoLPX/iyErX/TYbjx0ylmkKRPXz2EGhZivpNrC9ssqocUDA6m MA8kE0wXuClsgGIqRKBbLZ15nOXskwSVoFsYi1kP+3oQLHWDEgWisUJENujZMj+Qn0em wrG3NY9pqSA/ENc/BVQJCDRVqL0pYOdzCEIj+Zb2VhI1jes52JaMZSUtXltYOaWScAFv VFq4lA534Dog/mYIlkJ7CBhWshWYgyVdpg/aIXNhxEQztGOwjWAFaLjF+jSzogXnY5yV 4WRw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1yKObX+avCSm5A/j9kLuf7ptcn/okU4XGB4lnW7lqqwqWQpyVq NBoMTmVPyGl9pMaYJEqg9KCCYwJTn7zQxxKBtcg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKL3uPn5P0liq8osF9Y5bcK4d8jT4LJrKY+W0fsRDDeI/jL8vKQ6vN6X9IaKX574VyfX08PBJhNgMAmiVfWvrzc= X-Received: by 2002:aed:24fb:: with SMTP id u56-v6mr21848153qtc.203.1529552615833; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:43:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:aed:24f0:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:43:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:43:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Pete Heist Cc: Cake List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] lanman2018 cake talk ideas X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 03:43:36 -0000 I think your "megabit myth" idea (and language) would be a very powerful paper and/or talk to try and hammer home in multiple venues. I might spend a slide on it at this conference, but it deserves more focus than that. On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:45 AM, Pete Heist wrote: > > On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > Try as I might, finding a memorable narrative hook to fit into 20 > minutes eludes me. There's so much to cake! There's no room for me to > break out a guitar or carry a case of water bottles into this press. > > > To me, explaining this stuff is about trying to connect the technology wi= th > relatable human experience, and asserting/showing that the continued focu= s > on throughput is misplaced. Is this audience already aware of that, or no= t? > Maybe test them up front to see how much you need to talk about it. If yo= u > assume they know this and they don=E2=80=99t, the blank stares will start= a minute > or two into the talk... > > If at least some people in the audience need an explanation, or even if y= ou > just want to hammer it home, for this type of crowd (should at least be > somewhat technical), why not make an analogy with the =E2=80=9CMegahertz = myth=E2=80=9D? That > finally died in 2005 with the Pentium Extreme Edition (with the =E2=80=9C= Extreme=E2=80=9D > part not describing its speed, but rather its flirtation with thermal > limits), when AMD came out with a =E2=80=9Cslower=E2=80=9D CPU that was a= ctually faster. > Finally there was an awareness that ah, it=E2=80=99s not just clock speed= , it=E2=80=99s > pipelines, it=E2=80=99s caching, it=E2=80=99s branch prediction, it=E2=80= =99s the instruction set, > it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated, and there=E2=80=99s no getting around i= t. > > Let=E2=80=99s start arguing that there=E2=80=99s an analogous =E2=80=9CMe= gabit myth=E2=80=9D that has no > Wikipedia page yet because it persists to this day. Analogous to the > megahertz myth, it=E2=80=99s not just =E2=80=9Cmegabits per second=E2=80= =9D, but it=E2=80=99s inter-flow > latency, it=E2=80=99s intra-flow latency, it=E2=80=99s fairness, it=E2=80= =99s IPDV, it=E2=80=99s all of this > under dynamic loads, it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated. And because it=E2= =80=99s a complicated > problem, Cake has a number of solutions built into it, which you=E2=80=99= ll talk > about... Perhaps Cake=E2=80=99s mascot should be a multi-headed creature = of some > kind (the monster that Eric referred to), maybe a hydra. Cake is definite= ly > multi-headed. :) > > If this audience is aware of this already, just move beyond it more quick= ly, > but it=E2=80=99s worth hammering it home at least a bit, because again, w= here=E2=80=99s that > "Megabit myth" Wikipedia page? It doesnt exist, because it hasn=E2=80=99t= yet sunk > in to the general consciousness that hey, why are we paying for 50Mbit > symmetric fiber connections that can feel like 5Mbit ADSL? > > Will the abandonment of network neutrality finally be the =E2=80=9CPentiu= m Extreme > Edition=E2=80=9D that brings the megabit myth to a head? > > A principal complaint of the reviewers of the paper was the lack of > real world tests, so I snuck in a couple sides for that and am working > on incorporating the graphs and other text from the paper. > > > I hadn=E2=80=99t noticed that complaint, but it=E2=80=99s legit. RRUL tes= ts are interesting > and point out what =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D happen, but long-term =E2=80= =9Cbefore and after=E2=80=9D tests > on real networks and backhauls would be real proof. This doesn=E2=80=99t = help you at > this late stage in the game, but let=E2=80=99s take that comment to heart= in the > future. Meanwhile, do we have any quotes from users on how it improved th= eir > experience, or is that too anecdotal? or quotes from people in the field? > > What does a ieee lanman2018 audience already grok, what needs to be > explained? > > > That=E2=80=99s a key question, you=E2=80=99ll probably have to feel the a= udience out unless > someone knows the conference already? > > I will be periodically updating the currently very raw > > http://www.taht.net/~d/cake/ieee.odp > > as we go along. Please share your thoughts.... > > > Will do, or also write if you=E2=80=99re in need of something specific=E2= =80=A6 > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-669-226-2619