From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABCDF3B29E; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 05:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id c21so7934680qkl.6; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 02:41:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mQG8El1FGUHxkcLYCp4WGG9a0yAtsmBz5YoAPU9U400=; b=amtlQEa/AyaJTwMGujohLXRhGA25fKIzGyJrtiuCi62DJkBD0FSCEhJa00FYTI47Ay WcjtijSOmJxM9CiiU8Fo4UioV/0Fn2opJFMSx2XuHfuL2Ef374xGHPLog941aqHBfSAM H7mW93gczFyW9RUjZOEmoZVhtE/DbfwpadS5Bpafh7kYfnLrWiEXhknAGHoZ7zvgt7rJ pxgLfh4j2ETQZ1ajVoo3TqsyzSl9afk6I1DmqZvPAf7tqk1WNJ+ATCJ1KVV+76CUBj76 cYyy2zAAtQZ4ZWG/s6f0vdrKkJwuzcOoJCZ+8MnI5s+1jzxtF0fNo9kMX+qya8V0Z8fi Y+Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mQG8El1FGUHxkcLYCp4WGG9a0yAtsmBz5YoAPU9U400=; b=pYl/6uOwJ7Fss1FhAS7f+AZh0Y0vOg59RUFLk25XL+Tq9GjLkj+bATqMQnzW3uzLaF F82R1a/RmlLgDzLEYmEE0ulf+JEKSS7KsyTyGgbjdxdmNSYQi3CVaOXq2kavwbgwtmx5 abDH7jXNlYG/grFChQE27obGOXLC55uUDesHt81dcK9xDU88Brip0961fLpn5fKe/MNq qTEzCd6zWVWS6niQBxtRPl1GzCZVtm0u0PEqLPSorCoWs2OYIpDW/0D9Vc8ioE0MoNeF jTdZ22EVgi3mDX5RWNRZsrKaIyo9147FDTsTttlOcu7bBsuOWEeSRuK4UISPqVA/PKk7 vwOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukc6NNMpuQDYVjJsZq//2YYGiIMYnKvscsiF8GZYi4bVT0uciSR8 EZELiwtpChT3xH2I9OEFyilXz2K9rrDelmIX+I85qQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4igdVX1a75ZNAUPvnfxmvkhZzZUZYS/y83RmBBahjyhjiWn+c4geqtna1mEOnPnVAEqbL7l4ip69sR5ITsOys= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:ee02:: with SMTP id i2mr45067455qkg.179.1549276877146; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 02:41:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1549233729.17269312@apps.rackspace.com> <87k1ig6nwd.fsf@taht.net> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 02:40:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Dave Taht , Cake List , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] [Cerowrt-devel] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb-06 is in last call X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 10:41:17 -0000 On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:34 AM Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Dave Taht wrote: > > >> The problem with CAKE/FQ and background traffic is that it can't tell = if > >> there is congestion or not, and things like LEDBAT can't backoff and t= ry > >> to avoid causing congestion. So your previous email about allowing som= e > >> congestion to take place on LE would be good as then protocols that tr= y to > >> avoid causing congestion would have a way to do so. > > > > I do not like that the standard allows for total starvation. I would > > prefer it had a minimum of 5%. > > I fully agree, and that would work even if all LE traffic was put into > single queue with 5% of total bw, and even if that had a 1 second FIFO > with tail drop. We don't quite agree. "Every application has the right to one packet in the network" - John Nagle Cake adheres to that as closely as possible, yet still keeps latency low for all applications background, priority or best effort. fq_codel doesn't, which leads to shorter queue lengths when ECN is in heavy use. I wish cake would more aggressively drop ECN packets. Sadly cake's uptake is a bit slow, as it is a bit slow. > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740