From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E64AF3BA8E for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id s78so2486505qkl.8 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dANaUlgxWuOZjSfxj5M/5ah1Fva9qOAPlJyELBp6auU=; b=GaLx8pPS3bqr9xUzU8k+j7vqBKG2lUGcqsVKa1rg65NbJQPvIS0axOBVe1XfT1phjF EnjgHYNINdcmXCy83JjuDAg/iKDpBfJstfbVvDuh1ECSlN30jyDl1AiRl23RfHTrBDnH POdI+twG9orYgdONYBfDx+XO83kWxku2R9j3fqy6rpKQT5d7iTMXWDIdG/ZhNKXKSTql d2hUg3+LWK4pIAN1jUz1hmyVECi1YDXbR9B1Vsxv4V/sSVpHz+6J6kwta/OCNTVr2Uof fUEkpm2mHWSW34/TgDoaIR5HEW1r0C7bLOvNi1XRKVJnXnu//IiO9YzXeG6W1pFeAFlB K0gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dANaUlgxWuOZjSfxj5M/5ah1Fva9qOAPlJyELBp6auU=; b=aqa4FUhlSxP2AqXPye1mhjkm9Y7tFu1MYlfHD+WS8pWd7Ed70AsxdNZok+m/lyGFi1 erumerVtCiYRQNrm9vmP+Kje6oGA4RjbVBOaiCq7TAljGvIZjxkWFYItdRtUESs7Qzxk Mvv1gOZATk5QVPDi9P+mnEQReGMlCA6VJGBkx2maUzV5Uk2FSLhZw6XeCcmcsz5z/ALF OZ7RL2dNjUiyD8Bev26J0+OKKy4RkOtb2LWO8K3EoY7qk4WtojGTxayhsIyP9m9sdvoT 7rbidmdAoKwzpsoJv9yFlXZB+0PMTzpD9fWk7Fk5jnkNb+eWNa/oxnW3akRkWwEPtLQS HUqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDOKSXVOpq8IlJAh1ErzqgONrzlqWrJA0Zf6EvpRe8C09AAke6E wbTJM6jXv8fmytvg3SixSjniepXxI1FWBFrm09o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrSN0/BxF+kbzfO3WC1oD0OHK457YK7O9xqL3alTQMShCyMwdOWu07w2rcrF/myFn9k9OMywFafaGUh2SdQd2I= X-Received: by 10.233.232.88 with SMTP id a85mr2677192qkg.121.1524070955379; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.148.218 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:02:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5BD20E12-2408-4393-8560-3FDA52D86DB3@gmail.com> References: <87vacq419h.fsf@toke.dk> <874lk9533l.fsf@toke.dk> <87604o3get.fsf@toke.dk> <578552B2-5127-451A-AFE8-93AE9BB07368@gmail.com> <87r2nc1taq.fsf@toke.dk> <0BB8B1FD-6A00-49D6-806E-794BD53A449F@gmx.de> <3457DD8E-0292-4802-BD1E-B37771DCADA2@gmail.com> <87fu3s1om2.fsf@toke.dk> <5BD20E12-2408-4393-8560-3FDA52D86DB3@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:02:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: =?UTF-8?B?VG9rZSBIw7hpbGFuZC1Kw7hyZ2Vuc2Vu?= , Cake List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] A few puzzling Cake results X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:02:36 -0000 Jonathan: I think you are wrong. What we care about is keeping packets in flight across the network, with a queue length as close to 1 packet as possible. If it breaks ingress mode so be it. On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Jonathan Morton wr= ote: >> On 18 Apr, 2018, at 7:11 pm, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote: >> >> What you're saying here is that you basically don't believe there are >> any applications where a bulk TCP flow would also want low queueing >> latency? :) > > I'm saying that there's a tradeoff between intra-flow induced latency and= packet loss, and I've chosen 4 MTUs as the operating point. > > Bear in mind that with high packet loss, the retransmissions take an extr= a RTT to complete in any case, and there's a higher probability of incurrin= g an RTO which will *really* hurt your intra-flow latency. > > This equation is modified with ECN because a high signalling rate doesn't= result in packet loss or retransmissions, but I'm not presently making any= decisions based on ECN support, except the obvious one of whether to mark = or drop. > > - Jonathan Morton > > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-669-226-2619