From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AFFF3B29E for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-686f19b6dd2so2897919b3a.2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 07:11:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1690812664; x=1691417464; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=dhLQavLG8noZS3d7kW9Rm2wEzXGa8TRcon6A9KtLZ60=; b=Z6aPRO/vhE1gkgYxjTcZ79RMxTd1yigYI5naNq4K9JwtRhpL73X03tYQY5kk6QSoWF rVPDv6Ub+h7sG0iMEqGZ7OcDBlawodXGZtYuo4q4/MfvobKx5mUkkCRF/TqOI3DKPd9O t3qwjCoIicgpoturS3CdN6qM0Js1jitLypGY/1VIIZOcr8W+MaNSZjXN+7OHznRZhPpI ZsL7bQmmcwT7DS+m+CGreKG/ZPh0uRQfH2fkn8FzW9cSp15dCDsNBkDORlUAgI50unTt rCpL/tz6oibb+w/Pp+vJpBuR/w4n3VSWeyxjNXvqfuRZQk4eZO5OSR+Sub9pSOTqzPuJ 5aeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1690812664; x=1691417464; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=dhLQavLG8noZS3d7kW9Rm2wEzXGa8TRcon6A9KtLZ60=; b=e7FRhwGmes9Alkx6XgPXbClZLoWSBO85IwZAfeS0TriVhr0cNtd8OGbzcqdytB0ng4 5gpFTQGhQtc7gi9RW0V3RM8V5FIRrzDIEgOis3KkJFdc3rKejyL2x5PCgZcYe95A9/rz yvpive4g/LFywWconcy3zkYl3wCOzD6nWacqClj3OE/R6NKOEH0edz05Pbyxpw5in22M 2qe85of2ri/nbRCWiI7ZZ8C22Wggu3YiWE2IlAA75+Z9kIXBupThSfo3q7Z+eLx8mC/+ OYOhrOghlr19HMQ1q8QvdezuPrYAfL8uQzphdqIk3XhNDx3xKJ+dgWTL3D/oABA2BA6k 7Rjw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLZhVfeHmHWVTOEmRU2sin6fZCFmrFlbKSm60eHj574uHpJZOG10 L9X+7Pz4pi/T4S8fuUYBCE59KdQV7TOML9xwF2WDbdd6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlFJVRG2Y9gXsNKFHpsfeyC+UBd/+sYqV6zPwYoYqJGAIBih+ZhLC+mmAHFIg/iPkHnhAavkGyeMPa+6D/y1W6Y= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fa81:b0:268:5d00:3751 with SMTP id cu1-20020a17090afa8100b002685d003751mr8208382pjb.10.1690812664124; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 07:11:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1690669208.244711590@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1690669208.244711590@apps.rackspace.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 07:10:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Cake List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] cakemq X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:11:05 -0000 On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 3:20=E2=80=AFPM David P. Reed = wrote: > > Here's me wearing my business executive/business consulting hat: You look good in a hat! > > > If you want a market that fits Cake very well, SME corporate routers and = building-scale routers are perfect. Whereever there's a bottleneck behind w= hich you have many PCs and consumer devices, etc. Cake can do the job. (Tha= t's better than the bulk of the low end home routers, which still are insta= lled in apartments with one family as the only traffic source, so just buyi= ng a faster link typically manages the bottleneck OK today). I agree that there are markets in the small biz space. However a lot of fq_codel and cake has already entered that market (fq_codel on pfsense, cake on things like riverbed, evenroute pro, mikrotik), and I have no idea how well it is doing. In any case, building a routing or firewalling product from cake out is quite an undertaking, and my goal with writing up some needed features was to find a way to just support further development. > > > Let's say you are a startup in the Bay Area - you get a Comcast Business = service connection, and then start hiring people with laptops. And maybe yo= u have some "lights out" server capacity at some colo you pay for, but you = don't buy the highest speed service for your server traffic to get to your = developers' machines (either in the office or remote). > > Seems to me that Cake is the answer, and that answer will run in mini-PCs= (heftier CPUs than today's home routers) that have 2 NICs, each that are G= igE or 2.5 GigE or 40 GigE, depending on your bottleneck bandwidth of the s= ervice you can buy from Comcast Business or your colo facility. I strongly agree that lil business routers that do more of the right things would be good, also "managed wifi". > > > Cake will "just solve" the problem of congestion at that bottleneck, by p= ushing back traffic rates fairly to the endpoints on a flow by flow basis. > > > > Now lots of small businesses run something like pFSense at that bottlenec= k point on that hardware. > > Others seem to even run something more complex like Proxmox (because it c= osts next to nothing) with one of the VMs being the "router". > > > > I'm sure there are lots of small IT support shops that install and mainta= in these appliances out there. I don't know any personally, but it's crazy = for a small business to have a full time employee maintain that interconnec= t. I know of a few managed services companies, but they are small. > > > So, given that Cake would make them more money, I am not entirely certain that reducing service calls makes that kind of shop "more money". >they must be convincable to share some of that with Cake developers. Becau= se they have deep pockets, Comcast Business (which is a VERY different busi= ness from Comcast residential Internet) would be the first place I'd look. = Presumably they dela with Value Added Resellers who specialize in provision= ing small and medium businesses. I think that some large ISPs' business units would be interested, but that they would to existing vendors more than someone new and shiny. > > > (I once had a nice conversation with Jason Livingood about how Comcast Bu= siness is independent and should be thought of as having very different tec= h needs. He might be able to tell you who at Comcast Business might be a go= od contact. The same with all the other business Internet access providers = out there.) Thank you for your thoughts. > > > > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 4:49pm, "Dave Taht via Cake" said: > > > thank you sebastian and dave for your comments and feedback so far. I > > would like to find other markets for cake, more statistics worth > > collecting, and other ideas, in the hope that we could find something > > fundable out of the mix. > > > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht = wrote: > > > > > > I don't know if it is possible to multithread cake or not. But I > > > started writing the ideas up here: > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tTYBPeaRdCO9AGTGQCpoiuLORQzN_bG3TAk= EolJPh28/edit?usp=3Dsharing > > > > > > Pretty fragmentary, other use cases, other features, other > > > mis-features, and thoughts requested. > > > > > > -- > > > Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > > > > > > > -- > > Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > _______________________________________________ > > Cake mailing list > > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake > > --=20 Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos