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[209.85.219.52]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6eb3ef0f209sm45699336d6.3.2025.03.24.08.39.11 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-f52.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6ecf0e07954so22395096d6.1 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWiufI1eN8FSdQHcyGOFbde2ED1HZdE9rTceilPUhLu2V0B1okFPp50WHdQSZaBj0eE13HQ@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:224e:b0:6e4:41b3:497e with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6eb3f3af23amr197017386d6.40.1742830750671; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:39:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7FBEC0CA-162E-48A2-81D6-97CDD2F63EEC@gmail.com> <8756E062-0FC3-4301-8884-B1BCA7A124B5@jeffhansen.com> In-Reply-To: <8756E062-0FC3-4301-8884-B1BCA7A124B5@jeffhansen.com> From: Daryll Swer X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JoClxnSaIqU1TSCbKs0xX79-JiDzBHS9B1pOZbm_JplfoYUT9nVKM54YPA Message-ID: To: Jeff Hansen Cc: Frantisek Borsik , Jonathan Morton , jordan@inacomptc.com, Cake List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc2d2106311867c6" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 06:40:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [Cake] CAKE is going to be deployed on Alta Labs any day now! X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:13 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 21:08:33 +0530 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:13 -0000 --000000000000cc2d2106311867c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was looking at your Route10 product, but it looks to be consumer-heavy, at this point time. I run stuff like BGP in my home network (as I have MPLS-to-the-home delivery) and PIM-SM, would be cool if you folks supported some DC-fabric features on Route10 in the future with FRR as the daemon or something. One thing I'd like to mention, Route10 should have a good NAT implementation to support EIM-NAT for TCP/UDP to allow P2P networking to work over a NAT box. Additionally, support NAT Hairpinning for user's LAN subnets to allow intra-NAT traffic to work over STUN discovery, this eliminates TURN traffic= . Small to large-scale CGNAT deployments around the globe is something I've been consulting for a few years now. I'm happy to potentially beta test your products, if you'd like, for best practices conformance with very specific RFCs. BQL would be good to have for long-term viewpoint, perhaps your Ethernet driver provider, could patch it up for BQL support and that would be a good foundation for FQ_Codel on your Route10. MikroTik has FQ_Codel, but lacks BQL, and they refused to listen to Fran and Dave Taht, so perhaps you folks are our only hope :) *--* Best Regards Daryll Swer Website: daryllswer.com On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 20:53, Jeff Hansen wrote: > Frank, > > The hardware that Route10 is based off of doesn=E2=80=99t support FQ Code= l nor > CAKE at all, so everything is done in software on our 5.4 Linux kernel. I= t > works great, though. In some instances it=E2=80=99s the only way to max o= ut a PPPoE > connection and have optimal latency. > > It doesn=E2=80=99t look like our ethernet driver supports BQL at all, so = we > haven=E2=80=99t tried that yet, but as is, it absolutely eliminates high = latency if > tuned properly. > > -Jeff > > On Mar 21, 2025, at 2:27=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik > wrote: > > Happy to see that! Thanks, guys. > > Adding Jeff > , > Alta Labs CTO - Darryl > > has a suggestion how to push this further: "Maybe they can add both > FQ_CoDel and CAKE with BQL support? How's hardware-offloading of FQ_CoDel > looking on these =E2=80=9Cprosumer=E2=80=9D equipment these days? I haven= 't kept up over a > year on this topic." > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 3:44=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Morton > wrote: > >> > On 19 Mar, 2025, at 12:01 am, Frantisek Borsik via Cake < >> cake@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> > >> > Should be pushed through production in day or two and they will be >> talking about it on https://streamyard.com/watch/ubYm2AffWkYi >> >> this Wednesday, March 19, at 1PM EST / 12PM CST / 11AM MST / 10AM PST >> >> I joined the stream, and was able to ask about the throughput they were >> getting with CAKE on their hardware. This is just for the "Route 10" >> rather than their APs, and they reported getting about 2.5Gbps throughpu= t >> with CAKE enabled. They do correctly note that the hardware-accelerated >> forwarding path is disabled for the interface where CAKE is turned on. >> >> Supporting 2.5Gbps is pretty good I think, and should be sufficient to >> handle all practical Internet subscriptions that are likely to require >> bufferbloat mitigation. For comparison, on the same call they claimed >> about 800Mbps throughput for acting as a WireGuard tunnel endpoint. >> >> - Jonathan Morton > > > --000000000000cc2d2106311867c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was looking at your Route10 produc= t, but it looks to be consumer-heavy, at this point time. I run stuff like = BGP in my home network (as I have MPLS-to-the-home delivery) and PIM-SM, wo= uld be cool if you folks supported some DC-fabric features on Route10 in th= e future with FRR as the daemon or something.

One = thing I'd like to mention, Route10 should have a good NAT implementatio= n to support EIM-NAT for TCP/UDP to allow P2P networking to work over a NAT= box.
Additionally, support NAT Hairpinning for user's LAN subnets t= o allow intra-NAT traffic to work over STUN discovery, this eliminates TURN= traffic.
Small to large-scale CGNAT deployments around the globe= is something I've been consulting for a few years now. I'm happy t= o potentially beta test your products, if you'd like, for best practice= s conformance with very specific RFCs.

BQL would b= e good to have for long-term viewpoint, perhaps your Ethernet driver provid= er, could patch it up for BQL support and that would be a good foundation f= or FQ_Codel on your Route10. MikroTik has FQ_Codel, but lacks BQL, and they= refused to listen to Fran and Dave Taht, so perhaps you folks are our only= hope :)

--
Best Regards
Daryll Sw= er
Webs= ite: daryllswer.com


3D""
On = Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 20:53, Jeff Hansen <x@jeffhansen.com> wrote:
Frank,

The hardware that Route1= 0 is based off of doesn=E2=80=99t support FQ Codel nor CAKE at all, so ever= ything is done in software on our 5.4 Linux kernel. It works great, though.= In some instances it=E2=80=99s the only way to max out a PPPoE connection = and have optimal latency.

It doesn=E2=80=99t look = like our ethernet driver supports BQL at all, so we haven=E2=80=99t tried t= hat yet, but as is, it absolutely eliminates high latency if tuned properly= .

-Jeff

On Mar 21, 2025,= at 2:27=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:
Happy to see that! Thanks, guys.

Adding Jeff, Alta Labs CTO - Darryl has a suggestion how to push this further= : "Maybe they can add both FQ_CoDel and CAKE with BQL support? How'= ;s hardware-offloading of FQ_CoDel looking on these =E2=80=9Cprosumer=E2=80= =9D equipment these days? I haven't kept up over a year on this topic.&= quot;

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
= All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fr= antisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0<= /p>

iMessage, mobile: += 420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com=



On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 3:44=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.co= m> wrote:
> On 19 Mar, 2025, at 12:01 am, Frantisek Borsik via Cake <cake@lists.bufferb= loat.net> wrote:
>
> Should be pushed through production in day or two and they will be tal= king about it on https://streamyard.com/watch/ubYm2AffWkYi this Wednesday,= =C2=A0 March 19, at 1PM EST / 12PM CST / 11AM MST / 10AM PST

I joined the stream, and was able to ask about the throughput they were get= ting with CAKE on their hardware.=C2=A0 This is just for the "Route 10= " rather than their APs, and they reported getting about 2.5Gbps throu= ghput with CAKE enabled. They do correctly note that the hardware-accelerat= ed forwarding path is disabled for the interface where CAKE is turned on.
Supporting 2.5Gbps is pretty good I think, and should be sufficient to hand= le all practical Internet subscriptions that are likely to require bufferbl= oat mitigation.=C2=A0 For comparison, on the same call they claimed about 8= 00Mbps throughput for acting as a WireGuard tunnel endpoint.

=C2=A0- Jonathan Morton

--000000000000cc2d2106311867c6--